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Old 07-19-2013, 12:21 PM   #3631
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Re: How Libertarians Win Friends And Influence People With Their Positions on the Civil War

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Why is there an undeclared responsibility to not secede? The spirit of the Declaration seems to be that we have a clear right to change our government if it's tyrannical? (that's not an endorsement of the CSA's position on the USA).

The spirit of the US Constitution is also clearly pro-secession--states can only voluntarily relinquish sovereignty--surely they can take back that which they voluntarily surrendered?

And what duty is the source of this responsibility? To whom do they owe this responsibility? The other states? If so, what is the nature of this duty? To avoid doing them harm? What possible harm does it do the US if, for instance, Rhode Island decides it wants to reclaim its status as a fully sovereign nation?
The federal government's guarantee that states will have a republican form of government is not really consistent with a right of secession.
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Old 07-19-2013, 03:12 PM   #3632
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Re: How Libertarians Win Friends And Influence People With Their Positions on the Civil War

It's almost like the Constitution was a compromise of sorts.

I'll get back to you on that.
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Old 07-19-2013, 08:21 PM   #3633
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Re: How Libertarians Win Friends And Influence People With Their Positions on the Civil War

lol at using Articles of Confederation to bolster an argument about anything except how poorly the Articles of Confederation worked for producing an effective government.
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Old 07-19-2013, 08:23 PM   #3634
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Re: How Libertarians Win Friends And Influence People With Their Positions on the Civil War

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Anyone who truly thinks that the framers didn't think that secession was a possiblity or that a state wasn't meant to be it's own sovereign needs to look at the first federal government of the United States which was established under the Articles of Confederation. They pretty much wanted to be 13 states that were loosely bound for trade and protection from Britain.
Which "framers" were those exactly? Certainly not the federalists who explicitly repudiated the Articles to produce a stronger, more stable government. lol u @ using the term "framers." Framers of what?

If States can secede based on policies they don't like, does any law passed by the federal government actually have any force? What is the difference between nullification and secession in such a case?
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Old 07-20-2013, 02:20 AM   #3635
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lol at using Articles of Confederation to bolster an argument about anything except how poorly the Articles of Confederation worked for producing an effective government.
This thread is pretty awesome
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Old 07-20-2013, 11:24 AM   #3636
 
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Re: How Libertarians Win Friends And Influence People With Their Positions on the Civil War

AoC were a pretty fantastic failure. Nothing in the Constitution really says the Union is perpetual, but, Article 1 sec 10 pretty explicitly outlaws what the Confederacy did when they seceded.

It really sucks because I'm taking a history class on 1776-1877 and our final essay prompt is "did the South have the right to secede?" and the class is clearly being taught that yes, they did.

You can cite the Declaration and Locke all you want, but neither of those are legal documents.
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Old 07-20-2013, 11:54 AM   #3637
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AoC were a pretty fantastic failure. Nothing in the Constitution really says the Union is perpetual, but, Article 1 sec 10 pretty explicitly outlaws what the Confederacy did when they seceded.

It really sucks because I'm taking a history class on 1776-1877 and our final essay prompt is "did the South have the right to secede?" and the class is clearly being taught that yes, they did.

You can cite the Declaration and Locke all you want, but neither of those are legal documents.
Well, was "right" meant in a philosophical or legal sense? I think succession could be morally right, as say the north succeeding from the south, or booting the out of the govt (is that a right?).

Anyway, I doubt Locke ever mentioned succession and not sure how he felt about rebellion. The DOI does support something of a justice based right to "divorce" oppressive regimes that unfairly exploit a group/subgroup/charity minority.

I mainly think worrying too much about the borderline uninteresting question of succession just plays into the hands of neoconfederate types. Ignore the issue and hope they move on.
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Old 07-20-2013, 11:58 AM   #3638
 
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Re: How Libertarians Win Friends And Influence People With Their Positions on the Civil War

Wait, are we arguing that states a right to secede NOW? I thought we were talking about the Civil War.

anyway it doesn't matter what the hell kind of rights we have in a philosophical sense, because the USC is the law of the land and ultimately the only law that matters. hate it or love it, that's the way it is.

if you wanna argue that we have a moral right to secede, well, that's fine, but since it will never ever happen it's kind of a dumb exercise.

also wrt Locke, from my understanding he always stated that the social contract was a voluntary one and it's the right of an individual to nullify the contract if his natural rights are not being protected. or something like that. that kind of implies overthrowing your government if it doesn't meet your "needs."

Obviously Locke's contract is kind of outdated since it relies on God.

Last edited by jmakin; 07-20-2013 at 12:04 PM.
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Old 07-20-2013, 01:03 PM   #3639
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Re: How Libertarians Win Friends And Influence People With Their Positions on the Civil War

An article last year in Diplomatic History goes the heart of whether the founders considered secession constitutionally legitimate.

It argues that foreign and domestic military threats were the trump considerations behind the constitution. Political discourse then was full of fear of "a Monster with thirteen heads." The states were not only likely to pull apart, but go to war. They were endlessly quarreling over trade, claims over western lands, minatory pacts against each other with Indians or other states. "The founders were acutely aware of these problems and repeatedly speculated that disunion and internal conflict was imminent." And as states sought allies against each other it would provide openings for Britain/France/Spain/Indians to intervene.

So a primary purpose of the Constitution was to prevent the disunion that was supposedly included as a right of states. This means secessionists have a high burden of proof. Wisdom of the day was that divisions were an existential threat, so a right to leave the union would need to be explicitly permitted by the Constitution. We shouldn't be surprised there isn't one, since that would obviate the purpose of US 2.0.

Robbie J. Totten, "Security, Two Diplomacies, and the Formation of the U.S Constitution," Diplomatic History 30:1 January 2012.
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Old 07-20-2013, 04:24 PM   #3640
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Obviously Locke's contract is kind of outdated since it relies on God.
Time to get out of that CC and take some real classes.
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Old 07-20-2013, 04:27 PM   #3641
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Re: How Libertarians Win Friends And Influence People With Their Positions on the Civil War

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Time to get out of that CC and take some real classes.
Maybe the uni isnt in the suburbs and they're scary people he refuses to be around.
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Old 07-20-2013, 04:33 PM   #3642
 
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Re: How Libertarians Win Friends And Influence People With Their Positions on the Civil War

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Time to get out of that CC and take some real classes.
I'm sorry, feel free to correct me besides throw around dumb insults. I'm here to learn.
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Old 07-20-2013, 05:01 PM   #3643
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Re: How Libertarians Win Friends And Influence People With Their Positions on the Civil War

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Originally Posted by jmakinmecrzy View Post
AoC were a pretty fantastic failure. Nothing in the Constitution really says the Union is perpetual, but, Article 1 sec 10 pretty explicitly outlaws what the Confederacy did when they seceded.

It really sucks because I'm taking a history class on 1776-1877 and our final essay prompt is "did the South have the right to secede?" and the class is clearly being taught that yes, they did.

You can cite the Declaration and Locke all you want, but neither of those are legal documents.
If a state has seceded, article 1, section 10 doesn't apply. Are you saying they didn't actually secede before joining?
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Old 07-20-2013, 05:17 PM   #3644
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Re: How Libertarians Win Friends And Influence People With Their Positions on the Civil War

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I'm sorry, feel free to correct me besides throw around dumb insults. I'm here to learn.
He's just saying that your class kinda seems like not a good learning experience if you're wasting time building towards Neo-Confederate garbage. It seems like you're on the right track though
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Old 07-20-2013, 05:25 PM   #3645
 
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Re: How Libertarians Win Friends And Influence People With Their Positions on the Civil War

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If a state has seceded, article 1, section 10 doesn't apply. Are you saying they didn't actually secede before joining?
This is like saying laws against punching someone in the face don't apply after you've already punched them.

Unless we're debating whether lincoln should have used force to maintain the union, which is wholly different.
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