Greatest POTUS, Round of 8: Abraham Lincoln vs Theodore Roosevelt - Politics and Economics

Nichlemn · 06-22-2012, 12:17 AM

This is part of a contest for 2+2's greatest President of all time. Each President is matched up against his successor in a single elimination tournament.

You have until 29th June to vote. To vote, you must have registered before January 1st, 2012 and have at least 100 posts in Politics.

Vote in the other three match-ups:

Washington vs. Eisenhower
Jefferson vs Polk
Clinton vs Kennedy

Abraham Lincoln

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wikipedia

After opposing the expansion of slavery in the United States in his campaign debates and speeches,[1] Lincoln secured the Republican nomination and was elected president in 1860. Before Lincoln took office in March, seven southern slave states declared their secession and formed the Confederacy. When war began with the Confederate attack on Fort Sumter on April 12, 1861, Lincoln concentrated on both the military and political dimensions of the war effort, seeking to reunify the nation. He vigorously exercised unprecedented war powers, including the arrest and detention without trial of thousands of suspected secessionists. He prevented British recognition of the Confederacy by skillfully handling the Trent affair late in 1861. His efforts toward abolition include issuing his Emancipation Proclamation in 1863 and encouraging Congress to propose what would become the Thirteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution.

Lincoln closely supervised the war effort, especially the selection of top generals, including commanding general Ulysses S. Grant. He brought leaders of various factions of his party into his cabinet and pressured them to cooperate. Under his leadership, the Union set up a naval blockade that shut down the South's normal trade, took control of the border slave states at the start of the war, gained control communications with gunboats on the southern river systems, and tried repeatedly to capture the Confederate capital at Richmond. Each time a general failed, Lincoln substituted another until finally Grant succeeded in 1865. An exceptionally astute politician deeply involved with power issues in each state, he reached out to War Democrats and managed his own re-election in the 1864 presidential election.

As the leader of the moderate faction of the Republican party, Lincoln found his policies and personality were "blasted from all sides": Radical Republicans demanded harsher treatment of the South, War Democrats desired more compromise, Copperheads despised him, and irreconcilable secessionists plotted his death.[2] Politically, Lincoln fought back with patronage, by pitting his opponents against each other, and by appealing to the American people with his powers of oratory.[3] His Gettysburg Address of 1863 became the most quoted speech in American history.[4] It was an iconic statement of America's dedication to the principles of nationalism, equal rights, liberty, and democracy. At the close of the war, Lincoln held a moderate view of Reconstruction, seeking to reunite the nation speedily through a policy of generous reconciliation in the face of lingering and bitter divisiveness. But six days after the surrender of Confederate commanding general Robert E. Lee, Lincoln was assassinated by Confederate sympathizer John Wilkes Booth at Ford's Theatre.

Theodore Roosevelt

Quote:

Roosevelt attempted to move the Republican Party (GOP) toward Progressivism, including trust busting and increased regulation of businesses. Roosevelt coined the phrase "Square Deal" to describe his domestic agenda, emphasizing that the average citizen would get a fair share under his policies. As an outdoorsman and naturalist, he promoted the conservation movement. On the world stage, Roosevelt's policies were characterized by his slogan, "Speak softly and carry a big stick". Roosevelt was the force behind the completion of the Panama Canal; sent the Great White Fleet on a world tour to demonstrate American power; and negotiated an end to the Russo-Japanese War, for which he won the Nobel Peace Prize.

Case Closed · 06-22-2012, 12:59 AM

Teddy is the goat. I wish he was the prez during the civil war. He would have killed Robert e lee in his sleep and ended the war in three weeks. No speeches no nonsense.

Mayo · 06-22-2012, 08:47 AM

Lincoln gets the haters furious in this forum, but he freed the damn slaves. That's basically the single greatest thing an American has ever done. Obviously there were hundreds of thousands of casualties in the Civil War, but it gave four million men, women, and children the liberty that everyone in this forum claims to hold so dear. Suspending habeus corpus and stuff like that is no good, but it's ridiculously small potatoes compared to freeing millions of people from slavery. Lincoln is the GOAT president imo.

Though Teddy is great as well, of course.

Ashington · 06-22-2012, 09:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mayo

Lincoln gets the haters furious in this forum, but he freed the damn slaves. That's basically the single greatest thing an American has ever done. Obviously there were hundreds of thousands of casualties in the Civil War, but it gave four million men, women, and children the liberty that everyone in this forum claims to hold so dear. Suspending habeus corpus and stuff like that is no good, but it's ridiculously small potatoes compared to freeing millions of people from slavery. Lincoln is the GOAT president imo.

Obligatory vampire response

Low Key · 06-22-2012, 12:49 PM

Quote:

sent the Great White Fleet on a world tour to demonstrate American power

Paul McSwizzle · 06-22-2012, 03:04 PM

tough matchup here, 2 of my top 4... I go with Teddy cuz he had the balls to go after the 1%

neverfoldthe1outer · 06-22-2012, 06:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mayo

Lincoln gets the haters furious in this forum, but he freed the damn slaves. That's basically the single greatest thing an American has ever done. Obviously there were hundreds of thousands of casualties in the Civil War, but it gave four million men, women, and children the liberty that everyone in this forum claims to hold so dear. Suspending habeus corpus and stuff like that is no good, but it's ridiculously small potatoes compared to freeing millions of people from slavery. Lincoln is the GOAT president imo.

Though Teddy is great as well, of course.

lol. it's not like it was totally necessary to suspend habeus corpus in order to free the slaves. also not necessary to basically kill or maim an entire generation of people.

Case Closed · 06-22-2012, 07:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by neverfoldthe1outer

lol. it's not like it was totally necessary to suspend habeus corpus in order to free the slaves. also not necessary to basically kill or maim an entire generation of people.

The south could have not revolted and decided slavery was not worth the continued bloodshed. It's not like the north attacked the south. Hell, the south even invaded the north.

Mayo · 06-22-2012, 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by neverfoldthe1outer

lol. it's not like it was totally necessary to suspend habeus corpus in order to free the slaves. also not necessary to basically kill or maim an entire generation of people.

I never said that suspending habeus corpus was necessary. Though I do think that the Civil War was necessary to end slavery. Without it, how and when do the 4,000,000 slaves get freed?

And 700,000 were killed out of a population of 35,000,000, which is 2%. That's not "an entire generation" imo.

neverfoldthe1outer · 06-22-2012, 07:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mayo

I never said that suspending habeus corpus was necessary. Though I do think that the Civil War was necessary to end slavery. Without it, how and when do the 4,000,000 slaves get freed?

And 700,000 were killed out of a population of 35,000,000, which is 2%. That's not "an entire generation" imo.

lol I didn't say "killed"...I said "killed or maimed".

Actually 750,000 dead btw. source-http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/03/science/civil-war-toll-up-by-20-percent-in-new-estimate.html?pagewanted=all

plus around 600,000 wounded.

4 million people served in total

http://www.civilwarhome.com/casualties.htm

so, of your population estimate of 35 million, 4 million served. more than 10% or total population. today in the US, roughly 32.1 million Americans are between 18 and 25 in age. That's also roughly 10% of the population. So, an entire generation wasn't involved in this conflict? Once again, casualties of about 1.35 million of 4 million serving. And that's not even counting injuries/conditions like PTSD, which were unknown back then. So yes, it did basically kill or injure almost an entire generation.

but hey, that's not much of a price to pay for something that could have been accomplished in other ways, right?

Mayo · 06-22-2012, 07:36 PM

You didn't say "involved." You said "killed or maimed." I am involved in the war in Afghanistan, but I don't think I've been killed or maimed. I mean my arm's a little sore from getting a shot the other day, but that's about it.

neverfoldthe1outer · 06-22-2012, 07:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mayo

You didn't say "involved." You said "killed or maimed." I am involved in the war in Afghanistan, but I don't think I've been killed or maimed. I mean my arm's a little sore from getting a shot the other day, but that's about it.

so with known casualties of 1.35 million out of 4 million serving, what kind of numbers do you think PTSD would add?

Mayo · 06-22-2012, 07:40 PM

I think that PTSD would add zero to the "killed or maimed" number.

neverfoldthe1outer · 06-22-2012, 07:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mayo

I think that PTSD would add zero to the "killed or maimed" number.

lolz. ok.

spaceman Bryce · 06-22-2012, 10:22 PM

I would've voted for lincoln but new information has come to light and now that he is an alleged axe murderer of vampires Im not sure who to vote for.