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Old 12-05-2011, 02:26 PM   #126
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Re: Who Will Be the 2012 Republican Presidential Nominee?

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Actually a "great" system would be one where anytime you went in with any symptom at all, you got every test in the book to make sure you didn't have that rare ailment. However in the real world that's cost prohibitive, so we have to find a solution that balances the needs of the patient with the real world requirements for cost. You want to limit the situations where a full, 8-year educated doctor is required, whereas in reality a simpler solution might be to just socialize the whole thing. Then everyone can get the maximum amount of care available and the costs can be controlled by a central authority and everyone benefits. Other than the hated 'socialism' word, what's wrong with that?
Bolded is so lol i'm not sure what to say. Look some into false positive rates and learn something.

Dino I don't want to limit anything. I don't want to be forced to see someone with an MD. If an uninformed someone such as yourself only wants to see MDs I have no problem with that. You can waste your money and pay me the extra 150 to tell you what you already know. I, otoh, would like to have other options.
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Old 12-05-2011, 02:28 PM   #127
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Re: The Great ObamaCare Debate, Part 231

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Clearly this thread needs renodoc to come in and tell us how right ikes is about the ease of medical diagnoses. Though of course he is a member of the physician conspirarcy community and may be biased, so that may or may not be a good idea.
And now you're frustrated and making **** up about my positions. Faaantastic.

Diagnosing everybody isn't easy, diagnosing a lot of basic stuff is.
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Old 12-05-2011, 02:35 PM   #128
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Re: The Great ObamaCare Debate, Part 231

My favorite example for stupid **** that doesn't need to be done by a doctor are Lac repairs. Do you really think it's necessary to go to 8 years of college to ****ing put 5 stitches in? THAT MAKES NO SENSE. hyachachchahachahcaha
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Old 12-05-2011, 02:36 PM   #129
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Re: The Great ObamaCare Debate, Part 231

Gonna have to agree with ikes on this. More nurse practitioners and PA's would be a cost saving measure that would not significantly affect the treatment of health care. I wouldn't be surprised if health outcomes improved because more people would have access. Keep in mind, these PAs and NPs and nurses would still be supervised by doctors and be able to refer patients immediately if they had any indication that the diagnosis wasn't routine. This is not people practicing medicine out of their garage.
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Old 12-05-2011, 02:37 PM   #130
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Re: The Great ObamaCare Debate, Part 231

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And now you're frustrated and making **** up about my positions. Faaantastic.

Diagnosing everybody isn't easy, diagnosing a lot of basic stuff is.
Okay so if that's true then I apologize. Regardless the more important part I disagree with is that the whole notion of having a nurse or someone diagnose 'simple' stuff, even if it were possible, isn't by itself going to solve the health care situation in America. The system needs a complete overhaul, not some quick band-aid that probably wouldn't save very much money even if it could work.
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Old 12-05-2011, 03:12 PM   #131
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Re: The Great ObamaCare Debate, Part 231

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Okay so if that's true then I apologize. Regardless the more important part I disagree with is that the whole notion of having a nurse or someone diagnose 'simple' stuff, even if it were possible, isn't by itself going to solve the health care situation in America. The system needs a complete overhaul, not some quick band-aid that probably wouldn't save very much money even if it could work.
I disagree with ikestoys about almost everything, but I 100% agree with him in his arguments about not needing doctors for most diagnoses. I'm not sure why we would throw out a valuable improvement to the medical system just because there are other more important changes that need to be made as well.
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Old 12-05-2011, 03:19 PM   #132
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Re: The Great ObamaCare Debate, Part 231

Obamacare was just the harbinger of his socialist policies.

Never mind the fact that we cannot possibly afford this nor the fact that it was passed with noone knowing what the hell it was.

Its going to swell the medicaid rolls and bankrupt the states....well not before they try to raise taxes again on the "rich" (the states that is in addition to the fed). Just another thing paid for by the already tax burdened taxpayers.

You 20 somethings on here have a helluva future let me tell ya.
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Old 12-05-2011, 03:21 PM   #133
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Re: The Great ObamaCare Debate, Part 231

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Obamacare was just the harbinger of his socialist policies.

Never mind the fact that we cannot possibly afford this nor the fact that it was passed with noone knowing what the hell it was.

Its going to swell the medicaid rolls and bankrupt the states....well not before they try to raise taxes again on the "rich" (the states that is in addition to the fed). Just another thing paid for by the already tax burdened taxpayers.

You 20 somethings on here have a helluva future let me tell ya.
lol
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Old 12-05-2011, 03:30 PM   #134
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Re: The Great ObamaCare Debate, Part 231

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Obamacare was just the harbinger of his socialist policies.

Never mind the fact that we cannot possibly afford this nor the fact that it was passed with noone knowing what the hell it was.

Its going to swell the medicaid rolls and bankrupt the states....well not before they try to raise taxes again on the "rich" (the states that is in addition to the fed). Just another thing paid for by the already tax burdened taxpayers.

You 20 somethings on here have a helluva future let me tell ya.
You realize it's actually cheaper than the existing system, right?
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Old 12-05-2011, 03:36 PM   #135
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Re: The Great ObamaCare Debate, Part 231

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You realize it's actually cheaper than the existing system, right?
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/opinion...L1M0axQLJj1KYN

This is just NY....lol cheaper now.

Who do you think is going to pay for this when the **** hits the fan in a couple yrs?
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Old 12-05-2011, 03:38 PM   #136
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Having an MD doesn't make you into a magic medicine man. Actual experience makes you a good physician.
^^Truth^^
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Old 12-05-2011, 03:40 PM   #137
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watson and the robots gonna save us all
watson and a trained chimp could do about 80% of my job I think.

But the other 20% is gonna cost you.
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Old 12-05-2011, 03:51 PM   #138
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Re: The Great ObamaCare Debate, Part 231

Get robots and chimps there and start paying doctors 1/5 what they make now. Problem solved?
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Old 12-05-2011, 03:51 PM   #139
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Re: The Great ObamaCare Debate, Part 231

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Gonna have to agree with ikes on this. More nurse practitioners and PA's would be a cost saving measure that would not significantly affect the treatment of health care. I wouldn't be surprised if health outcomes improved because more people would have access. Keep in mind, these PAs and NPs and nurses would still be supervised by doctors and be able to refer patients immediately if they had any indication that the diagnosis wasn't routine. This is not people practicing medicine out of their garage.
The U.S. pays twice as much as any other country for health care. Let's eliminate as many parasites as possible. Medicine is a fine art, not an exact science. We can't afford the trial lawyers and high level insurance execs.
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Old 12-05-2011, 03:52 PM   #140
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Re: The Great ObamaCare Debate, Part 231

Btw, my wife has had 4 bouts of shingles in the past 6 months. This is almost assuredly has something to do with an immune deficiency caused by an autoimmune process. Chances of the PCP knowing enough about this type of problem to feel comfortable treating her are about 0. Somehow, the pcp will know to kick this up the chain.
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Old 12-05-2011, 03:52 PM   #141
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Re: Who Will Be the 2012 Republican Presidential Nominee?

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The problem here is that health care is by nature complex. For example, say a person comes in and tells you that they're suffering from fatigue, a slight fever, and some arthritic-type pain in their joints. Would you diagnose them as just needing bed rest, which would be the case in probably 90% of patients, or would you also be able to recognize those as early signs of lupus? If someone has a persistent headache, is it because they've been drinking too much coffee, or is it a brain tumor? What about a baby that won't stop crying? Is it just colic, or is it an ear infection? How does a non MD make these determinations?
Everyone knows...

Spoiler:
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Old 12-05-2011, 03:53 PM   #142
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Re: The Great ObamaCare Debate, Part 231

god ****ing dammit how did i miss that joke.
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Old 12-05-2011, 03:56 PM   #143
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Re: The Great ObamaCare Debate, Part 231

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My favorite example for stupid **** that doesn't need to be done by a doctor are Lac repairs. Do you really think it's necessary to go to 8 years of college to ****ing put 5 stitches in? THAT MAKES NO SENSE. hyachachchahachahcaha
Last two trips I've taken to the ER for needing stitches, the fiancee and I were both sewn up by NPs. The fiancee, however, was seen by another NP who saw that her hand wasn't working right and referred her to a hand specialist who performed a delicate nerve operation.
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Old 12-05-2011, 03:58 PM   #144
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Re: The Great ObamaCare Debate, Part 231

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Last two trips I've taken to the ER for needing stitches, the fiancee and I were both sewn up by NPs. The fiancee, however, was seen by another NP who saw that her hand wasn't working right and referred her to a hand specialist who performed a delicate nerve operation.
NPs do about 20% of the lac repairs in the ER I volunteer in. 75% are done by residents (which is pretty funny to watch when they come in july), the final 5% are done by attendings.
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Old 12-05-2011, 04:11 PM   #145
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Re: Who Will Be the 2012 Republican Presidential Nominee?

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Originally Posted by dinopoker View Post
Actually a "great" system would be one where anytime you went in with any symptom at all, you got every test in the book to make sure you didn't have that rare ailment. However in the real world that's cost prohibitive, so we have to find a solution that balances the needs of the patient with the real world requirements for cost. You want to limit the situations where a full, 8-year educated doctor is required, whereas in reality a simpler solution might be to just socialize the whole thing. Then everyone can get the maximum amount of care available and the costs can be controlled by a central authority and everyone benefits. Other than the hated 'socialism' word, what's wrong with that?
I'm speechless, everyone benefits except the people whose money was stolen to pay for it.
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Old 12-05-2011, 04:21 PM   #146
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Get robots and chimps there and start paying doctors 1/5 what they make now. Problem solved?
this is a very common misconception.

Cutting physician's fees (like the 28% they will be cut in 3 weeks without congressional action- LMAO) will barely scratch the surface of the problem.
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Old 12-05-2011, 04:25 PM   #147
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Re: The Great ObamaCare Debate, Part 231

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Originally Posted by 13ball View Post
Gonna have to agree with ikes on this. More nurse practitioners and PA's would be a cost saving measure that would not significantly affect the treatment of health care. I wouldn't be surprised if health outcomes improved because more people would have access. Keep in mind, these PAs and NPs and nurses would still be supervised by doctors and be able to refer patients immediately if they had any indication that the diagnosis wasn't routine. This is not people practicing medicine out of their garage.
The last crappy HMO I had I never saw a doctor once - just NP the whole time. That office sucked big time though. I had to wait over an hour every time I went, and call like 7 times just to get some x-ray results. While I'm waiting I get to hear the receptionist deal with irate patient after irate patient.

Anyway I'm not slamming the idea of NPs, just saying they are being used a lot for simple diagnosis currently.
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Old 12-05-2011, 04:26 PM   #148
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Re: Who Will Be the 2012 Republican Presidential Nominee?

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I'm speechless, everyone benefits except the people whose money was stolen to pay for it.
Oh god not another one of you.

So when one of you with no health insurance like The Steam goes to the ER for a car wreck or major illness, and walks away from a $300k bill, is that stealing or not?
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Old 12-05-2011, 04:30 PM   #149
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Re: The Great ObamaCare Debate, Part 231

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Originally Posted by renodoc View Post
this is a very common misconception.

Cutting physician's fees (like the 28% they will be cut in 3 weeks without congressional action- LMAO) will barely scratch the surface of the problem.
Quote:
CBO has recently estimated that an update, based on the standard Medicare Economic Index, would amount to a 10-year cost of $352.7 billion
So 80/27.4 = ~2.92 x 352.7B$ = ~1.03T$. Seems like more of a scratch to me! I'm really like this idea of robots and chimps.
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Old 12-05-2011, 05:06 PM   #150
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Re: Who Will Be the 2012 Republican Presidential Nominee?

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Oh god not another one of you.

So when one of you with no health insurance like The Steam goes to the ER for a car wreck or major illness, and walks away from a $300k bill, is that stealing or not?
Well it probably shouldn't cost 300k no matter what's being done, and it's not like we were leaving people to die in the street before government healthcare programs. We have a responsibility to give a human being care if they are in need.
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