I tried. I'm sorry I failed the cause.

It's okay, I'm just really fired up for some reason, my apologies to you.

I'm a health care profesional, it annoys me when people say health care should be free. Of course people don't like to pay for health care. They also don't like to pay for gasoline, or food, or electricity, or water, or natural gas/heat. Lots of people toil long hours in crappy conditions so our society can have these things, and they all can't be free.

But they don't mean free free. That's kind of a given. Health care in Canada isn't free free, but it's 'free', and I think it's fair to interpret people saying free to mean free in the sense of UHC free, not free free. (when they're specifically talking about health care)

You have the right opinion, imo, without resorting to unneeded obtuseness.

I know what they mean. But why is health care so special and electricity or food or heat is not. I'm sure you've heard of the 'food insurance' or 'electrical insurance' arguments. I think it has a lot to do with people's feelings of the health care system and the idea that we can cure and solve all of people's problems. Unfortunately I can say, we can't.

I feel if we go down this road we might as well be at the point where we pay 80% taxation and electricity, gas, heat, food, and transportation is all 'free' and decreed from high by the omnipotent government.

This is my line in the sand.

Errr...I don't think food works there. DUCY?

Totally valid argument. Why would it stop with healthcare? If I got in power, I happen to love Internet and think everyone should have it it's so great and life is horrible without it. And the guy after me thinks sneakers are so great and valuable and that life sucks without them. And the guy after him...

I'm on your side, definitely. But I also understand the idea that the system we have now is atrocious. A government so intertwined with the medical industry that it creates... Not 'obscure', maybe sounds like it? I can't think of the word, but it creates markets that are distorted and can leave people in bankruptcy for minor surgeries without insurance, sometimes even with. That's why people want change.

obfuscate?

Maybe, my broken brain no work good some times. God bless the free health care I'm currently receiving in the united states. XD

(well, it's state funded, so gogo tenth amendment?)

Obviously helping people is a big part of that equation, but I'm not planning on spending 4 years in school, taking out 100k in loans, and working for a waiters pay for 6 years after I graduate to make little either.

Would you be ok with a free education and a salary that topped out at prob 80-100kish (inflation adjusted obv)? I think under a free healthcare system you would get about that (clearly this is hypothetical as I don't think it works without providing strong education incentives). Maybe it's just me but that seems like a livable wage for someone who cares about helping people first and foremost.

No. I'd be making much less than I could at a job with better hours, less stress and much less schooling. What you describe would be about a million dollars loss in earnings over a career from a mediocre PCP wage. Is there some magic number? Probably, but it's going to be much more than that.

A free healthcare system where I get paid? Come on dude, the logical disconnect is absurdly obvious.
First off, I didn't claim that helping people was 'first and foremost'. Helping people is a big part of the equation, but I deserve to be paid for my services. This isn't a minority opinion either. The number of doctors willing to work for free are very few, and the AMA has been intentionally holding down the amount of available physicians to keep wages high. Doctors aren't some noble creatures, willing to save every person no matter what the cost. Doctors are humans just like any other person, and respond to incentives just like anybody else. Basically, if you give a crap wage and require a ton of training, you're not going to have many new doctors.

Strangely enough, a Google search looking for the exact phrase "health care should be free" yields a bazillion results but very few of them actually contain the phrase "health care should be free".

Paid for by taxes is not the same as free ldo.

What is so bad about that outcome? Society and government should exist solely to protect the higher living standards of an over class? There will always be a premium on work, but are you so crotchety, old man you begrudge the end of poverty? It doesn't take much intelligence to see the world doesn't need seven billion workers to produce more than enough to ensure comfortable lives.

You work in health care which means seventy plus percent of your income comes from government taxation now. Why are you so hostile to everyone benefitting from government as you do?

1) Citation needed
2) Doctors ****ing hate medicare pay rates. They'd much, much, much rather have privately insured patients.

2014 provisions of the Affordable Care Act are supposed to end the worst instances of medical bankruptcy. I think it caps out of pocket at twenty percent of household income, but I would have to recheck that.

Government didn't create the medical industry we have. A fairer wording would be that the industry created its government. That cooperation between government and industries(AMA, bigpharma, hospitals, insurance, and device makers) led to a policy trap. Enough people got enough care while enough people got rich, there is not enough impetus for change to overcome any of the entrenched interests.

I'll see if I can find some sources for you if you really need them. It's not hard to see where the government is in every area of reimbursement. Especially in hospitals and nursing homes. Add in all government employees and people on disability. Then for everyone with employer insurance you have to account for the tax exemption. I've never seen an estimate of the governments direct and indirect contributions to health care under the mid sixties.

**** doctors. The single most insidious force in the twentieth century health care policy formation was the AMA. They fought insurance, hospitals, Medicare, and any subsequent attempt at extending provision of health care. Granted, they are not the force they were, nor as bad since the eighties. But, they still have a stranglehold on the supply of new doctors and artificially inflate the cost of medical education. Karma still owes them.

FWIW, I heard on NPR a while back that something on the order of 60% of nursing home residents are covered by medicaid. YMMV.

And I want a blowjob from Christy Turlington.

ikes, I know Saint Rand made this argument and all the liberals laughed at him so you gotta white knight for oppressed, but you really should spend maybe another 3-5 minutes thinking about a position before you bravely argue for TRUTH, JUSTICE, AND THE ASPERGER'S WAY.

Doctors in UHC countries seem to be doing alright for themselves.

To be fair, most UHC doctors don't start with 200k in debt.

Obviously I don't want to live in a society where the working class pays 80% taxation for an underclass to get out of poverty. I don't want or need the government to provide for my basic human needs. Fortunately we live in America where such things are unlikely to happen in the near future. As previously stated, this is my line in the sand.

The health care mandate issue is an odd one. The same group that is diametrically opposed to any kind of handout wants to protect your right to freeload off of emergency healthcare.

Really? Try going to live in Somalia and get back to us. We take for granted exactly how much the government provides. Do you live in fear of a band of thugs coming through and shooting up your house, stealing your stuff, raping your family, etc? Do you get into a nice car, drive on nice roads to the grocery store and buy cheap, safe food?

We really have it good here. Life is totally different in places in the world where the government doesn't provide for its citizens' basic needs. We are spoiled rotten.

Strawman argument. Did I say I want to live in an Anarcho-capitalist state? Did I say we don't have it good here? I pay a fair amount in total taxation. I am not arguing for zero taxation.

Our seniors are being taken care of with SS/Medicare. Our young children have SCHIP if needed.

http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/cha...stitution.html

Because it's unconstitutional. The federal government cannot force its citizenry to purchase "an item" in the marketplace.

No one can freeload off of emergency healthcare. Even the poor still get a "bill" even though they won't pay it. Their credit will still be trashed. A bankrupty still sucks.