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Old 12-05-2011, 02:26 AM   #76
ikestoys
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Re: Who Will Be the 2012 Republican Presidential Nominee?

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Oh, I would have assumed you would have hoped that the insurance companies would have left your wife to die. Free ponies, imo.
Without the massive runup in prices caused by government induced monopolies and subsidies, it'd be pretty easy to get my wife affordable care.

And watch yourself, you're coming extremely close to a line I don't think you mean to cross.
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Old 12-05-2011, 02:26 AM   #77
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Re: Who Will Be the 2012 Republican Presidential Nominee?

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Really the biggest problem in health care right now are MDs. There's no legitimate reason for every basic cost of going to the doctor to have gone up so much. This has happened because MDs have carved out a nice monopoly by using the government.

There's simply no reason you have to go to advanced schooling for 8 years and apprentice for another 3 in order to diagnose someone with a cold. None, zero, nada.
what if we diagnose your pony as being slow?
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Old 12-05-2011, 02:27 AM   #78
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Re: Who Will Be the 2012 Republican Presidential Nominee?

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ya i have "corporate insurance". but my understanding is that if someone has AIDS and they apply for Blue Cross etc, Blue Cross with Obamacare cannot turn them down or charge them more due to the AIDS. Correct?
Not until 2014.
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Old 12-05-2011, 02:30 AM   #79
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Re: Who Will Be the 2012 Republican Presidential Nominee?

Taso none of your proposals handles inverse selection (only sick people will tend to seek out insurance). How do you propose to handle that?
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Old 12-05-2011, 02:32 AM   #80
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Re: Who Will Be the 2012 Republican Presidential Nominee?

i think part of the reason MDs conduct the tests for revenues is because:

1) insurance

with insurance, they aren't charging the patient directly, so they don't feel too guilty about it. tough problem, but i don't think the solution is mandating everyone to get insurance

and 2) malpractice insurance is so costly due to law suits. probably need some kind of reform here but i'm no expert.
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Old 12-05-2011, 02:33 AM   #81
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Re: Who Will Be the 2012 Republican Presidential Nominee?

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Without the massive runup in prices caused by government induced monopolies and subsidies, it'd be pretty easy to get my wife affordable care.

And watch yourself, you're coming extremely close to a line I don't think you mean to cross.
If I can take off my unrepentant liberal hat for a minute, and actually be genuine, I'll say that I'll back off for a minute and say that I know nothing about your wife's health situation and certainly hope that whatever issue it is that she has, I hope that she has a full recovery and certainly meant no disrespect. In addition, even though over the course of time, you and I have certainly had our fair share of arguments on this board, I have absolutely no ill will towards you or your family, certainly not on a personal level.

That being said, I do honestly hope that even if you don't agree with most, if not all of it, that the changes to the health care system within the ACA actually do help you and your family get whatever care you need.
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Old 12-05-2011, 02:33 AM   #82
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Re: Who Will Be the 2012 Republican Presidential Nominee?

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ya i have "corporate insurance". but my understanding is that if someone has AIDS and they apply for Blue Cross etc, Blue Cross with Obamacare cannot turn them down or charge them more due to the AIDS. Correct?
That is correct, just like with your corporate insurance now - they can't turn you down or charge more to sick people.

That is the trade-off for the mandates you hate so much. You can't have one without the other. If you know you're getting the healthy people, you can underwrite for the sick as well. That's how it's done with corporate insurance because they know with the company footing 2/3 or more of the bill, and the people guaranteed to be taking home a paycheck - almost everyone will sign up - which is good enough to effectively underwrite, even with some sick people.
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Old 12-05-2011, 02:34 AM   #83
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Re: Who Will Be the 2012 Republican Presidential Nominee?

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Taso none of your proposals handles inverse selection (only sick people will tend to seek out insurance). How do you propose to handle that?
idk what you're talking about i'm a healthy young buck so they tell me anyways and i pay for the most basic plan i could find to insure against a hospital stay or other big cost

but ya, the main thing is to reduce the cost of healthcare so you only really need insurance for major problems which would decrease the costs of insurance.
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Old 12-05-2011, 02:36 AM   #84
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Re: Who Will Be the 2012 Republican Presidential Nominee?

But you'd still have the adverse selection problem with private insurance, even with decreased healthcare costs.
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Old 12-05-2011, 02:37 AM   #85
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Re: Who Will Be the 2012 Republican Presidential Nominee?

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If I can take off my unrepentant liberal hat for a minute, and actually be genuine, I'll say that I'll back off for a minute and say that I know nothing about your wife's health situation and certainly hope that whatever issue it is that she has, I hope that she has a full recovery and certainly meant no disrespect. In addition, even though over the course of time, you and I have certainly had our fair share of arguments on this board, I have absolutely no ill will towards you or your family, certainly not on a personal level.

That being said, I do honestly hope that even if you don't agree with most, if not all of it, that the changes to the health care system within the ACA actually do help you and your family get whatever care you need.
Yeah, how bout reading the thread? Seriously, maybe if you actual read what I post you might pick up more subtle things like:

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Suzzer is learning the game, and this is pretty freaking obvious imo. I think I've come around to the thinking that the old/current health care system (not the free market) is probably worse than obamacare.
And not post silly things like this right after:

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Like most people who oppose health care reform, I'm going to jump out on a limb and say that he hates Obamacare, but loves the idea that children can stay on their parents' plans until they're 26, that health insurance companies actually have to spend money on health care, and that insurance companies can't deny chemotherapy to people because they didn't mention that they got pimples when they were in high school.

But then again, ikes gonna ikes.

Seriously, you seem to have this idea as me as a right wing talking point machine, and it's really not true. There's a lot more dems on this board than republicans, and most of the time it's barely worth talking to many of the latter.
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Old 12-05-2011, 02:39 AM   #86
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Re: Who Will Be the 2012 Republican Presidential Nominee?

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That is correct, just like with your corporate insurance now - they can't turn you down or charge more to sick people.

That is the trade-off for the mandates you hate so much. You can't have one without the other. If you know you're getting the healthy people, you can underwrite for the sick as well. That's how it's done with corporate insurance because they know with the company footing 2/3 or more of the bill, and the people guaranteed to be taking home a paycheck - almost everyone will sign up - which is good enough to effectively underwrite, even with some sick people.
yeah i'm saying i don't think businesses should be forced by the government to accept anyone, no one, everyone, just one, just none, people/persons/person as a customer nor should the government force a business to set a certain price for anyone/no one/everyone/ just one/ etc. if an insurance company wants to do that on its own it's perfectly welcome to, and they do it when it's profitable as you've indicated.

but again, i think you're trying to treat symptoms not the disease.
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Old 12-05-2011, 02:43 AM   #87
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Re: Who Will Be the 2012 Republican Presidential Nominee?

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But you'd still have the adverse selection problem with private insurance, even with decreased healthcare costs.
this isn't true in my experience. my brother just signed up for a dental plan, he's unemployed.

more people would sign on to healthcare plans if they were cheaper. they'd be cheaper if healthcare cost less. healthcare would cost less if government didn't grant a monopoly on it to MDs.
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Old 12-05-2011, 03:26 AM   #88
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Re: Who Will Be the 2012 Republican Presidential Nominee?

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Taso none of your proposals handles inverse selection (only sick people will tend to seek out insurance). How do you propose to handle that?
It's called "adverse" selection. Learn words. Read books.
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Old 12-05-2011, 03:28 AM   #89
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Re: Who Will Be the 2012 Republican Presidential Nominee?

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But you'd still have the adverse selection problem with private insurance, even with decreased healthcare costs.
I dispute this claim.

http://econlog.econlib.org/archives/..._cea_on_a.html
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Old 12-05-2011, 03:35 AM   #90
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Re: Who Will Be the 2012 Republican Presidential Nominee?

I think polling Obamacare is really hard and not effective. You're basically polling Obamacare against your idea of how health care should be (which would poll just as horribly if not worst).

Its kind of like polling against a generic candidate. It really doesn't tell the whole story as it will often give a candidate a floor/ceiling. In this case your polling Obamacare's floor vs. another plan or lack of a plan.
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Old 12-05-2011, 05:04 AM   #91
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Re: The Great ObamaCare Debate, Part 231

A+ thread extraction

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Yeah more intellectual dishonesty.
Looking forward to more ikestoys seminars on intellectual honesty!
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Old 12-05-2011, 10:42 AM   #92
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Re: The Great ObamaCare Debate, Part 231

Jeeeezus this got extracted! Wtf!

ikes turned my remarks about Obama's centrism into reheated argumentation about healthcare?

ikes wins
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Old 12-05-2011, 10:53 AM   #93
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Re: Who Will Be the 2012 Republican Presidential Nominee?

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ikes please show an Obamacare repeal over 50% poll that doesn't include the 10-15% who think it's not liberal enough.
suzzer loves to demand links. Yet he provides no links supporting his stats.
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Old 12-05-2011, 11:30 AM   #94
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Re: The Great ObamaCare Debate, Part 231

My favourite part is how people say that all the main parts of Obamacare poll favourably (we did this song and dance with LirvA recently) yet ikes still cites polls saying Obamacare is unpopular.

People in America (and not just America) are generally pretty stupid. Like, i assume ikes is above intelligent cos he is premed or something. So something like 80% of Americans are stupider than him. They are all ignorant. They just plain dont understand this bill but they have been told its bad enough times that they trust that its bad. Then sneaky liberals do dirty underhand things like explain what it is all about and they like it.

Tsao is also pretty clever, he had to look up Obamacare on wikipedia in this thread to know if he liked it or not. Some parts he didnt understand, but it sounded pretty scary so he was against it. Which to be fair is expected cos he is very fringe so he should hate it, but the fact he had to look it up on wikipedia to know what it was going to do is the key part.
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Old 12-05-2011, 11:53 AM   #95
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Re: Who Will Be the 2012 Republican Presidential Nominee?

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suzzer loves to demand links. Yet he provides no links supporting his stats.
snaggle posted the polls before I could.
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Old 12-05-2011, 12:28 PM   #96
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Re: Who Will Be the 2012 Republican Presidential Nominee?

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Where are all these liberals fighting for repeal? If that number is 10-15% of the electorate, and you assume those people are exclusively democrats, that's 33%-50% of the democratic party. If you assume that's just people left of center, that's 20-30% of the people left of center (not liberals) in the country. Where are these people?
There's a big difference between saying something in a poll about repeal and actually fighting for it.

Quote:
The fact is that these people don't exist in those kind of numbers. People are just dumb when they answer poll questions.
lol, okay.

Quote:
Again, if Obamacare's problem was that it wasn't actually UHC, you wouldn't expect UHC to get slaughtered in public opinion polls, but it does anyways.
Or maybe it's just because

Quote:
People are just dumb when they answer poll questions.


But, yeah, you have completely missed the point that more liberal policies don't show improvement in polling because, while they gain liberal support, they lose more people in the middle. Nobody is arguing that liberal ideas on health care are more popular than Obamacare, just that liberal disappointment in the compromise that was Obamacare is reflected in its popularity polling.
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Old 12-05-2011, 12:35 PM   #97
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Re: Who Will Be the 2012 Republican Presidential Nominee?

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Really the biggest problem in health care right now are MDs. There's no legitimate reason for every basic cost of going to the doctor to have gone up so much. This has happened because MDs have carved out a nice monopoly by using the government.

There's simply no reason you have to go to advanced schooling for 8 years and apprentice for another 3 in order to diagnose someone with a cold. None, zero, nada.
27 years, counting kindergarten, which i count- cause its school you know.

Some go longer. And the thing is, when you're done- you still don't really know what you're doing for another 5-10 years. Which is why they call it a practice.

I, for one, would welcome my free market cracker-jack box diploma competition. Bring it.
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Old 12-05-2011, 12:36 PM   #98
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Re: The Great ObamaCare Debate, Part 231

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My favourite part is how people say that all the main parts of Obamacare poll favourably (we did this song and dance with LirvA recently) yet ikes still cites polls saying Obamacare is unpopular.

People in America (and not just America) are generally pretty stupid. Like, i assume ikes is above intelligent cos he is premed or something. So something like 80% of Americans are stupider than him. They are all ignorant. They just plain dont understand this bill but they have been told its bad enough times that they trust that its bad. Then sneaky liberals do dirty underhand things like explain what it is all about and they like it.

Tsao is also pretty clever, he had to look up Obamacare on wikipedia in this thread to know if he liked it or not. Some parts he didnt understand, but it sounded pretty scary so he was against it. Which to be fair is expected cos he is very fringe so he should hate it, but the fact he had to look it up on wikipedia to know what it was going to do is the key part.
lolz@ you pretending you know every single aspect of the bill.
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Old 12-05-2011, 12:39 PM   #99
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Re: The Great ObamaCare Debate, Part 231

lolz at you still not understanding adverse selection
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Old 12-05-2011, 12:41 PM   #100
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Re: The Great ObamaCare Debate, Part 231

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A+ thread extraction



Looking forward to more ikestoys seminars on intellectual honesty!
Looking forward to you actually posting anything of value.

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Jeeeezus this got extracted! Wtf!

ikes turned my remarks about Obama's centrism into reheated argumentation about healthcare?

ikes wins
Errrr no, suzzer and snaggle really want to think that the public is on health care's reform side because an approve/disapprove poll has more people saying it's ok or not liberal enough while ignoring that polls that show repeal and a SC overturn are over 50% as well.
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