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Old 12-05-2011, 10:05 PM   #176
jogsxyz
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Re: The Great ObamaCare Debate, Part 231

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/08...tstodoctor.htm

Americans Make Nearly Four Medical Visits a Year On Average

For Immediate Release: August 6, 2008

The premiums for single coverage in 2008 averaged almost $400 per month and nearly $5,000 per year.
===================
So in 2008 the average medical visit cost Americans $1250. There must be a less expensive system.
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Old 12-05-2011, 10:06 PM   #177
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Re: Who Will Be the 2012 Republican Presidential Nominee?

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Originally Posted by peetar69 View Post
Talk about bat**** crazy.

Republicans were not givin an ounce of respect or influence during the intire creation of the bill. The bill did not receive a single republican vote. Every time republicans would try to have any influence on the bill, Berry would say" You drove the car into the ditch, you gotta sit in the backseat now"
There isn't one sentence in that bill that came from a republican commitee member.
In its present iteration, maybe. However the actual ideas in it came from the GOP and Heritage Foundation's alternative plan they presented back when the Dems were trying to pass Hillarycare (the same plan adopted by Romney in Mass. fwiw). Fast forward 20 years and they're against their own ideas. Care to explain to me why, because I can't figure it out.

Unless...

Spoiler:
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Old 12-05-2011, 10:08 PM   #178
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Re: The Great ObamaCare Debate, Part 231

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Originally Posted by jogsxyz View Post
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/08...tstodoctor.htm

Americans Make Nearly Four Medical Visits a Year On Average

For Immediate Release: August 6, 2008

The premiums for single coverage in 2008 averaged almost $400 per month and nearly $5,000 per year.
===================
So in 2008 the average medical visit cost Americans $1250. There must be a less expensive system.
stuff like median is very important here.
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Old 12-05-2011, 10:56 PM   #179
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Re: Who Will Be the 2012 Republican Presidential Nominee?

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In its present iteration, maybe. However the actual ideas in it came from the GOP and Heritage Foundation's alternative plan they presented back when the Dems were trying to pass Hillarycare (the same plan adopted by Romney in Mass. fwiw). Fast forward 20 years and they're against their own ideas. Care to explain to me why, because I can't figure it out.

Unless...

Spoiler:
As soon as Hillarycare became a non-starter, so did the mandate (less the Mass. law). Rewind 20 years. Over the course of those twenty years, can you name a plan a republican member of congress, senate, or president has put forth to try to make a mandate the law? No.

Can you not see how the "alternative plan" was a political vehicle used to create a highly visible debate in opposition to Hilliarys' socialized medicine plan? Squashing that train wreck is another thing to be thankful to Newt for.
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Old 12-05-2011, 11:03 PM   #180
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Re: The Great ObamaCare Debate, Part 231

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The U.S. pays twice as much as any other country for health care. Let's eliminate as many parasites as possible. Medicine is a fine art, not an exact science. We can't afford the trial lawyers and high level insurance execs.
Does anybody have a link to a good study on where the US is bleeding money in health care compared to other 1st world nations?

I know that we pay more per individual and live less years compared to most other comparable countries. Do we pay more for the same procedures, have worse doctors, pay more for pharmaceuticals, just cuz we fatter? lawyers fault? Anybody know?
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Old 12-05-2011, 11:14 PM   #181
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Re: The Great ObamaCare Debate, Part 231

Prescription drug prices in the United States article in Wikipedia.

Disclaimer on Wikipedia.
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The neutrality of this article is disputed.
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Old 12-05-2011, 11:35 PM   #182
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Re: The Great ObamaCare Debate, Part 231

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Originally Posted by Fedorfan View Post
Does anybody have a link to a good study on where the US is bleeding money in health care compared to other 1st world nations?

I know that we pay more per individual and live less years compared to most other comparable countries. Do we pay more for the same procedures, have worse doctors, pay more for pharmaceuticals, just cuz we fatter? lawyers fault? Anybody know?
We don't go to the doctor any more than people in other countries and we don't stay in the hospital longer either. So why do we spend so much more? It's the prices, stupid.
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Old 12-05-2011, 11:50 PM   #183
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Re: The Great ObamaCare Debate, Part 231

Our healthcare costs more. It's the best in world. You can get from GP to specialist to surgery much faster here.

We are bleeding money on alot of stuff also. Lots of wastes and unneeded visits, tests and proceedures. Sick high malpractice insurance costs (see extra tests, visits, and proceedures). Very, Very expensive to get FDA to approve a new drug. Lots of fraud against insurance Cos., medicare.

We have really high wages across the board here also. If plumbers, accountants, and dock workers make more money here, it is understandable that doctors and nurses do to.
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Old 12-06-2011, 12:13 AM   #184
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Re: Who Will Be the 2012 Republican Presidential Nominee?

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Can you not see how the "alternative plan" was a political vehicle used to create a highly visible debate in opposition to Hilliarys' socialized medicine plan? Squashing that train wreck is another thing to be thankful to Newt for.
So then back when they said it was good they were lying? Good to know.

Wait, how do I know that they weren't telling the truth back then and lying now? Because Newt says so?
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Old 12-06-2011, 12:42 AM   #185
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Re: The Great ObamaCare Debate, Part 231

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Originally Posted by Double Eagle View Post
We don't go to the doctor any more than people in other countries and we don't stay in the hospital longer either. So why do we spend so much more? It's the prices, stupid.
Sometime in teh 90s TIME magazine did a great article regarding the pharm industry and the gouging of the US. I think it's in their archives as I remember finding it awhile back.

b
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Old 12-06-2011, 12:49 AM   #186
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Re: The Great ObamaCare Debate, Part 231

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Originally Posted by General Tsao View Post
so what is the problem? i think there's a few issues

1) competition among insurance co's

let all insurance co's compete regardless of state borders, don't force anyone to buy any insurance ever.

2) MDs have a monopoly
let others have medical practices. one big reason healthcare costs are so high is because MDs run unnecessary tests for revenue purposes. there needs to be competition otherwise costs go up and quality goes down. instead, the government has made it a law that only MDs can prescribe medications, only MDs can do blahblahblah.
Nurse practitioners and physician's assistants do this too, bro.

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Originally Posted by ikestoys View Post
Really the biggest problem in health care right now are MDs. There's no legitimate reason for every basic cost of going to the doctor to have gone up so much. This has happened because MDs have carved out a nice monopoly by using the government.

There's simply no reason you have to go to advanced schooling for 8 years and apprentice for another 3 in order to diagnose someone with a cold. None, zero, nada.
No, it's systemic.

http://theincidentaleconomist.com/wo...-introduction/

The bracket is the excess spending in the US:



This is what comprises that bracket with the portions physicians are responsible for highlighted:



Quote:
Originally Posted by ikestoys View Post
[...]

A great anecdote from something I've read is about hernia repair. Hernia repair today is currently done by general surgeons, and they kind of suck at it really. Most GS do other things most of the time. The best place for hernia repair is this little facility made up of doctors with specialties from OB to internal to whatever who do absolutely nothing but hernia repair. They don't have fancy degrees, they just do the procedure over and over and over again.
That story is told in Atul Gawande's Complications IIRC. Good read for those interested.

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Originally Posted by Fedorfan View Post
Does anybody have a link to a good study on where the US is bleeding money in health care compared to other 1st world nations?

I know that we pay more per individual and live less years compared to most other comparable countries. Do we pay more for the same procedures, have worse doctors, pay more for pharmaceuticals, just cuz we fatter? lawyers fault? Anybody know?
This series covers it pretty well: http://theincidentaleconomist.com/wo...-introduction/
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Old 12-06-2011, 06:05 AM   #187
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Re: The Great ObamaCare Debate, Part 231

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Originally Posted by jogsxyz View Post
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/08...tstodoctor.htm

Americans Make Nearly Four Medical Visits a Year On Average

For Immediate Release: August 6, 2008

The premiums for single coverage in 2008 averaged almost $400 per month and nearly $5,000 per year.
===================
So in 2008 the average medical visit cost Americans $1250. There must be a less expensive system.
And in other news, people almost never have their homes burn down but they still pay for insurance on their homes.
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Old 12-06-2011, 09:01 AM   #188
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Re: The Great ObamaCare Debate, Part 231

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Originally Posted by peetar69 View Post
Our healthcare costs more. It's the best in world. You can get from GP to specialist to surgery much faster here.
That seems like a funny way to define "best in the world". The reality is that when you actually try to compare patient outcomes you find out that the US doesn't have the best health care in the world.

There have been a number of studies showing that - but here's one showing that the US does not have better overall outcomes than Canada: http://www.openmedicine.ca/article/view/8/1

And, of course, you can also look at things like infant mortality rate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...mortality_rate) or life expectancy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ife_expectancy) to again see that the US is not the best in the world.

While there's some arguments to be had that the US "funds the rest of the world" (which I don't really buy) or that the wealthy can get access to the best care in the world (which I do buy) you need to at least admit that the current system is not the best in the world by most metrics.
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Old 12-06-2011, 09:10 AM   #189
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Re: The Great ObamaCare Debate, Part 231

people screaming at the Republican bubble itt
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Old 12-06-2011, 09:20 AM   #190
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Re: The Great ObamaCare Debate, Part 231

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Originally Posted by Brons View Post
And in other news, people almost never have their homes burn down but they still pay for insurance on their homes.
Home owners' insurance isn't rising 3 to 5 times the rate of inflation every year.
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Old 12-06-2011, 09:20 AM   #191
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Re: The Great ObamaCare Debate, Part 231

I always love it when some Saudi prince (recently the King himself) travel to the US for medical care and the conservatives start screaming stuff about how great US health care is and that libruls should stop complaining. Even the King of Saudi-Arabia wants to get his care here!

They of course forget that the random conservative probably can't even afford to talk to the secretary of the clinic the royals visit.
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Home owners' insurance isn't rising 3 to 5 times the rate of inflation every year.
True. So?

Your point about the average cost of a medical visit still makes no sense.
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Old 12-06-2011, 10:43 AM   #192
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Re: Who Will Be the 2012 Republican Presidential Nominee?

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Oh god not another one of you.

So when one of you with no health insurance like The Steam goes to the ER for a car wreck or major illness, and walks away from a $300k bill, is that stealing or not?
And you thought I was unreasonable for calling taxation confiscation.
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Old 12-06-2011, 10:47 AM   #193
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Re: The Great ObamaCare Debate, Part 231

I thought this piece by John Stossel was very well done. I agree the present system needs reform but more government involvement is not the answer. Why do services that insurance doesn't cover go down in price while covered services go up?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3WnS96NVlMI
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Old 12-06-2011, 11:07 AM   #194
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Re: The Great ObamaCare Debate, Part 231



Source
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Old 12-06-2011, 11:36 AM   #195
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Re: The Great ObamaCare Debate, Part 231

The Worm, that piece is horrible. Is this the type of thing you base most of your opinions on?

Edit: I don't mean that in a partisan way. There are lots of people that disagree with me on health care where their opinions are based on different moral beliefs and how that influences how they react to actual facts - that's cool. But to think that piece has any sort of value in a health care debate is ridiculous.
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Old 12-06-2011, 11:52 AM   #196
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Re: The Great ObamaCare Debate, Part 231

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The Worm, that piece is horrible. Is this the type of thing you base most of your opinions on?

Edit: I don't mean that in a partisan way. There are lots of people that disagree with me on health care where their opinions are based on different moral beliefs and how that influences how they react to actual facts - that's cool. But to think that piece has any sort of value in a health care debate is ridiculous.
How is it horrible? I mean I don't know why I'm bothering since this is clearly an Obamacare lovefest but It really boils down to the fact that I don't want to give away more of my money to fund this program and I don't think I should be forced to. Clearly them majority feel the same way but whatever let's ram it down their throats cause it's good for them right? Government sucks at most things and this will be no different.
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Old 12-06-2011, 12:03 PM   #197
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Re: The Great ObamaCare Debate, Part 231

It's horrible because it's a bunch of anecdotal stories that are used to derive a specific conclusion when the same anecdotal stories could also be used to derive a host of other contradictory conclusions.

For example, the claim is made that "Lots of money is wasted on paperwork" but one way to deal with that is to have a single government-run insurance system (The amount of paperwork I deal with in Canada is significantly less than what I dealt with in the States).

Or ways to deal with people getting too many procedures done on their insurance is to introduce modest co-pays, waiting lists, or independent decision makers. I'm not claiming any/all of these are good ideas just pointing out that they'd also address the problem mentioned.

Your posts:

Quote:
Government sucks at most things and this will be no different.
and

Quote:
I think people are in no position to be charitable right now, but without bad government monetary policy and without the gov sticking it's hands in our pockets every chance it gets, the people who cared about taking care of the needy would be in better shape to do so. The free-market is better at reducing costs and improving services than government will be.
don't seem to be based in actual facts. You have these personal beliefs but haven't given any evidence to back them up (the bolded being the most ridiculous claim).
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Old 12-06-2011, 12:26 PM   #198
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Re: The Great ObamaCare Debate, Part 231

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Originally Posted by jjshabado View Post
It's horrible because it's a bunch of anecdotal stories that are used to derive a specific conclusion when the same anecdotal stories could also be used to derive a host of other contradictory conclusions.

For example, the claim is made that "Lots of money is wasted on paperwork" but one way to deal with that is to have a single government-run insurance system (The amount of paperwork I deal with in Canada is significantly less than what I dealt with in the States).

Or ways to deal with people getting too many procedures done on their insurance is to introduce modest co-pays, waiting lists, or independent decision makers. I'm not claiming any/all of these are good ideas just pointing out that they'd also address the problem mentioned.

Your posts:



and



don't seem to be based in actual facts. You have these personal beliefs but haven't given any evidence to back them up (the bolded being the most ridiculous claim).
Dude what? really I need to explain to you that I'd have more money If I wasn't taxed for bull**** programs I don't support? How's government run education gone?
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Old 12-06-2011, 12:35 PM   #199
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Re: The Great ObamaCare Debate, Part 231

Of course not. You need to explain how with that extra money you and everyone else is going to suddenly feel generous enough that you take care of all of those sick people that use to get treated by the Government.

And government run education has gone better than a completely free-market education system.
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Old 12-06-2011, 12:37 PM   #200
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Re: The Great ObamaCare Debate, Part 231

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They of course forget that the random conservative probably can't even afford to talk to the secretary of the clinic the royals visit.
True. So?

Your point about the average cost of a medical visit still makes no sense.
Before managed care Americans, even poor Americans, could afford to visit the doctor. You only paid for care you used. Not care others used.
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