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Old 12-04-2011, 07:09 PM   #1
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The Great ObamaCare Debate, Part 233: AHCA Passes House 217-213

Hmm centrist course and the health care stuff doesn't really fit.
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Old 12-04-2011, 07:25 PM   #2
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Re: Who Will Be the 2012 Republican Presidential Nominee?

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Hmm centrist course and the health care stuff doesn't really fit.
Yeah, it was more of a right-wing bill.
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Old 12-04-2011, 07:39 PM   #3
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Re: Who Will Be the 2012 Republican Presidential Nominee?

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Yeah, it was more of a right-wing bill.
lololol right, all those republicans voted for it!
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Old 12-04-2011, 08:19 PM   #4
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Re: Who Will Be the 2012 Republican Presidential Nominee?

The Republicans wouldn't vote for a bill honoring Reagan if Obama proposed it.

Trying to paint Obamcare as leftist obviously works even though it's wrong.
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Old 12-04-2011, 08:23 PM   #5
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Re: Who Will Be the 2012 Republican Presidential Nominee?

ikes,

it was mostly a Republican bill. All the big details came directly from Republican ideas.

Just because they moves so far off the bat**** level of right wing crazy doesnt mean Obama is anything but a centrist doing a lot of stuff Republicans liked before they went bat**** crazy.
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Old 12-04-2011, 08:26 PM   #6
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Re: Who Will Be the 2012 Republican Presidential Nominee?

lol mostly republican bill that what, literally one woman voted for?

That's about as intellectually honest as saying democrats are pro segregation because of dixiecrats in the 60s.
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Old 12-04-2011, 08:50 PM   #7
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Re: Who Will Be the 2012 Republican Presidential Nominee?

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lol mostly republican bill that what, literally one woman voted for?

That's about as intellectually honest as saying democrats are pro segregation because of dixiecrats in the 60s.
If they're such leftist ideas why did the Republicans introduce them back in the 90's as an alternative to Hillarycare?
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Old 12-04-2011, 08:52 PM   #8
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Re: Who Will Be the 2012 Republican Presidential Nominee?

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If they're such leftist ideas why did the Republicans introduce them back in the 90's as an alternative to Hillarycare?
Because it's not 20 years ago? Country as a whole has been moving to the right economically since LBJ. Defining the center as an arbitrarily convenient point 20 years ago is completely intellectually dishonest. Obamacare is well to the left of the current state of US politics.
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Old 12-04-2011, 08:59 PM   #9
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Re: Who Will Be the 2012 Republican Presidential Nominee?

Gingrich confirmed leftist. He was in favor of it just a few months ago.
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Old 12-04-2011, 09:01 PM   #10
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Re: Who Will Be the 2012 Republican Presidential Nominee?

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Gingrich confirmed leftist. He was in favor of it just a few months ago.
On this issue, yes he is. Not sure why this is so hard. The political spectrum isn't confined to one person, nor is it static.
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Old 12-04-2011, 09:02 PM   #11
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Re: Who Will Be the 2012 Republican Presidential Nominee?

ikestoys are you suggesting that whenever one of the two major American political parties unanimously oppose a policy, that policy is therefore radical?
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Old 12-04-2011, 09:03 PM   #12
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Re: Who Will Be the 2012 Republican Presidential Nominee?

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ikestoys are you suggesting that whenever one of the two major American political parties unanimously oppose a policy, that policy is therefore radical?
I'm saying that when a little more than half the population doesn't support a policy it isn't centrist. Actual centrist policies actually poll well and/or have support from both parties.

How this is controversial to you guys is just shocking to me.
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Old 12-04-2011, 09:04 PM   #13
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Re: Who Will Be the 2012 Republican Presidential Nominee?

Okay, then we can agree Obamacare is centrist as its individual components poll well. Woot
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Old 12-04-2011, 09:07 PM   #14
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Re: Who Will Be the 2012 Republican Presidential Nominee?

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Okay, then we can agree Obamacare is centrist as its individual components poll well. Woot
Yeah more intellectual dishonesty. Taking only the polls that you want to see is pretty lol.
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Old 12-04-2011, 09:07 PM   #15
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Re: Who Will Be the 2012 Republican Presidential Nominee?

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On this issue, yes he is. Not sure why this is so hard. The political spectrum isn't confined to one person, nor is it static.
So would you say that Obama is a leftist when it comes to this issue but a centrist overall?

Because you seem to imply something else with this post:


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Hmm centrist course and the health care stuff doesn't really fit.
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Old 12-04-2011, 09:14 PM   #16
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Re: Who Will Be the 2012 Republican Presidential Nominee?

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So would you say that Obama is a leftist when it comes to this issue but a centrist overall?

Because you seem to imply something else with this post:
Err no, obama's largest achievement, and currently basically his entire legacy, is that health care reform bill.

If his presidency ended today, that's basically all he'd be remembered for accomplishing (outside of first black prez) 15 years from now.
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Old 12-04-2011, 09:16 PM   #17
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Re: Who Will Be the 2012 Republican Presidential Nominee?

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Yeah more intellectual dishonesty. Taking only the polls that you want to see is pretty lol.
Your method of analyzing POTUS as being non-centrist will give the same result to any Presidency where the opposition cynically obstruct. The oppo can refuse to go along with ideas they supported in the recent past and call POTUS out of sync when he fails to satisfy their shifting whims. Its not useful or particularly "intellectually honest" to view things in this way where centrist policies are now leftist because a big proportion of the GOP opposes anything Obama.
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Old 12-04-2011, 09:18 PM   #18
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Re: Who Will Be the 2012 Republican Presidential Nominee?

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Your method of analyzing POTUS as being non-centrist will give the same result to any Presidency where the opposition cynically obstruct. The oppo can refuse to go along with ideas they supported in the recent past and call POTUS out of sync when he fails to satisfy their shifting whims. Its not useful or particularly "intellectually honest" to view things in this way where centrist policies are now leftist because a big proportion of the GOP opposes anything Obama.
Yeah, this would work IF the strength of the opposition was independent of public opinion. Since they aren't, and the republicans gained because of their opposition, your logic is crap.
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Old 12-04-2011, 09:26 PM   #19
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Re: Who Will Be the 2012 Republican Presidential Nominee?

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Yeah, this would work IF the strength of the opposition was independent of public opinion. Since they aren't, and the republicans gained because of their opposition, your logic is crap.
His logic is crap? What the hell are you even arguing, except some nonsense along the lines of, "If the presidency ended today, 'left-wing' (lol?) healthcare reform would be Obama's greatest legacy, therefore it magically negates all the other events in his presidency, therefore he is not a centrist"?
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Old 12-04-2011, 09:35 PM   #20
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Re: Who Will Be the 2012 Republican Presidential Nominee?

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His logic is crap? What the hell are you even arguing, except some nonsense along the lines of, "If the presidency ended today, 'left-wing' (lol?) healthcare reform would be Obama's greatest legacy, therefore it magically negates all the other events in his presidency, therefore he is not a centrist"?
None of the 'centrist' things he has done is significant when compared to obamacare. He's also been forced to move to the center after pushing through a liberal agenda when he had a very favorable congress.

Also, it's pretty rare for centrist presidents to have **** approval ratings.
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Old 12-04-2011, 09:47 PM   #21
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Re: Who Will Be the 2012 Republican Presidential Nominee?

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Classic Ikes. I coulda pulled a bunch of posts out, but i never said Obama was world class at debates at all.



There is an entire offshoot itt about whether Obama is a good debate based literally on a strawman. Someone else put it well, the format of the "debates" is such that its pretty close to impossible to truly win - at least on content.

The GOP House Issues Conference which someone linked with Obama crushing the GOP questioners is a closer representation of actual debates.

The reason the comparisons to Hilldog and McCain is silly is because Hilldog was generally pretty awesome and McCain was a war vet who hadnt truly gone off the deepend at that point. Newt is a complete douchebag. The idea that Obama "lost" the debates is missing that the story of the McCain debates was him wandering around aimlessly looking like he was half senile. The story of Obama debating Newt is going to be some fat douchebag insulting the POTUS who is acting like a gentleman and covering every point he makes as he has lived these policies for four years. He might even get out the professor voice and deliver a "look, Newt, i know you want to just argue, but lets talk about the issues and be civil like the people want". He is an instantly likeable person, that is why he won in 2008 and its why he would do fine with Newt in these debates.
very good post imo
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Old 12-04-2011, 09:58 PM   #22
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Re: Who Will Be the 2012 Republican Presidential Nominee?

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None of the 'centrist' things he has done is significant when compared to obamacare. He's also been forced to move to the center after pushing through a liberal agenda when he had a very favorable congress.
I see. So the wars, tax policy, financial regulation, energy policy, horse slaughter—none of these are significant in the face of the spuriously "leftwing" healthcare bill that Gingrich just recently supported (out of residual lefty-ism, of course) and the Republicans themselves devised twenty-ish years ago before deciding a massive PR campaign starring Death Panels was cynically required?

And where is this liberal agenda you say he pushed through early on? TARP? Bailing out the auto industry? Show me something persuasive, ikes.

Quote:
Also, it's pretty rare for centrist presidents to have **** approval ratings.
Come on, dude. You're not even trying with this one.

Anyway, here's an old timey article for a quick, no-mental-gymnastics snapshot (and reality check) from 2010 before the November surge by congressional Republicans. Yeah, they really reigned in his flaming liberalism. Gawd, he's so loathsomely distant on the political spectrum from a moderate Republican. (But like only in secret! But we sense it's there, biding its time! *cue hysterical panting*)

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Old 12-04-2011, 10:04 PM   #23
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Re: Who Will Be the 2012 Republican Presidential Nominee?

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None of the 'centrist' things he has done is significant when compared to obamacare. He's also been forced to move to the center after pushing through a liberal agenda when he had a very favorable congress.

Also, it's pretty rare for centrist presidents to have **** approval ratings.
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Old 12-04-2011, 10:07 PM   #24
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Re: Who Will Be the 2012 Republican Presidential Nominee?

In other news, Santorum trying to figure out why the bigots still won't vote for him...hopes putting "real conservative with social values" and "back of the bus" in the same sentence will help in Iowa.
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Old 12-04-2011, 10:33 PM   #25
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Re: Who Will Be the 2012 Republican Presidential Nominee?

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Paul has one problem he talks about tort to solve environmental problems but if you try to sue a doctor he freaks. do you really want 100,000 Erin Brokovichs running around suing everyone as long as the jury agree they might get $100,000,000 for lead paint.
Being 77.5 years old on Inauguration Day might also be a problem.
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