The Great ObamaCare Debate, Part 237: Back to Court - Page 6 - Politics and Economics

Actually a "great" system would be one where anytime you went in with any symptom at all, you got every test in the book to make sure you didn't have that rare ailment. However in the real world that's cost prohibitive, so we have to find a solution that balances the needs of the patient with the real world requirements for cost. You want to limit the situations where a full, 8-year educated doctor is required, whereas in reality a simpler solution might be to just socialize the whole thing. Then everyone can get the maximum amount of care available and the costs can be controlled by a central authority and everyone benefits. Other than the hated 'socialism' word, what's wrong with that?

Bolded is so lol i'm not sure what to say. Look some into false positive rates and learn something.

Dino I don't want to limit anything. I don't want to be forced to see someone with an MD. If an uninformed someone such as yourself only wants to see MDs I have no problem with that. You can waste your money and pay me the extra 150 to tell you what you already know. I, otoh, would like to have other options.

12-05-2011 , 02:28 PM

#127

ikestoys

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Quote:

Originally Posted by dinopoker

Clearly this thread needs renodoc to come in and tell us how right ikes is about the ease of medical diagnoses. Though of course he is a member of the physician conspirarcy community and may be biased, so that may or may not be a good idea.

And now you're frustrated and making **** up about my positions. Faaantastic.

Diagnosing everybody isn't easy, diagnosing a lot of basic stuff is.

12-05-2011 , 02:35 PM

#128

ikestoys

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Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 94,424

My favorite example for stupid **** that doesn't need to be done by a doctor are Lac repairs. Do you really think it's necessary to go to 8 years of college to ****ing put 5 stitches in? THAT MAKES NO SENSE. hyachachchahachahcaha

12-05-2011 , 02:36 PM

#129

13ball

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Gonna have to agree with ikes on this. More nurse practitioners and PA's would be a cost saving measure that would not significantly affect the treatment of health care. I wouldn't be surprised if health outcomes improved because more people would have access. Keep in mind, these PAs and NPs and nurses would still be supervised by doctors and be able to refer patients immediately if they had any indication that the diagnosis wasn't routine. This is not people practicing medicine out of their garage.

12-05-2011 , 02:37 PM

#130

dinopoker

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Quote:

Originally Posted by ikestoys

And now you're frustrated and making **** up about my positions. Faaantastic.

Diagnosing everybody isn't easy, diagnosing a lot of basic stuff is.

Okay so if that's true then I apologize. Regardless the more important part I disagree with is that the whole notion of having a nurse or someone diagnose 'simple' stuff, even if it were possible, isn't by itself going to solve the health care situation in America. The system needs a complete overhaul, not some quick band-aid that probably wouldn't save very much money even if it could work.

12-05-2011 , 03:12 PM

#131

jjshabado

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Quote:

Originally Posted by dinopoker

I disagree with ikestoys about almost everything, but I 100% agree with him in his arguments about not needing doctors for most diagnoses. I'm not sure why we would throw out a valuable improvement to the medical system just because there are other more important changes that need to be made as well.

12-05-2011 , 03:19 PM

#132

mikeinyonkers

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Obamacare was just the harbinger of his socialist policies.

Never mind the fact that we cannot possibly afford this nor the fact that it was passed with noone knowing what the hell it was.

Its going to swell the medicaid rolls and bankrupt the states....well not before they try to raise taxes again on the "rich" (the states that is in addition to the fed). Just another thing paid for by the already tax burdened taxpayers.

You 20 somethings on here have a helluva future let me tell ya.

12-05-2011 , 03:21 PM

#133

rjoefish

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Quote:

Originally Posted by mikeinyonkers

lol

12-05-2011 , 03:30 PM

#134

dinopoker

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Quote:

Originally Posted by mikeinyonkers

You realize it's actually cheaper than the existing system, right?

12-05-2011 , 03:36 PM

#135

mikeinyonkers

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Quote:

Originally Posted by dinopoker

You realize it's actually cheaper than the existing system, right?

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/opinion...L1M0axQLJj1KYN

This is just NY....lol cheaper now.

Who do you think is going to pay for this when the **** hits the fan in a couple yrs?

12-05-2011 , 03:38 PM

#136

renodoc

Casino Olympics Champion

Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 8,357

Quote:

Originally Posted by ikestoys

Having an MD doesn't make you into a magic medicine man. Actual experience makes you a good physician.

^^Truth^^

12-05-2011 , 03:40 PM

#137

renodoc

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Quote:

Originally Posted by snagglepuss

watson and the robots gonna save us all

watson and a trained chimp could do about 80% of my job I think.

But the other 20% is gonna cost you.

12-05-2011 , 03:51 PM

#138

rjoefish

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Get robots and chimps there and start paying doctors 1/5 what they make now. Problem solved?

12-05-2011 , 03:51 PM

#139

jogsxyz

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Quote:

Originally Posted by 13ball

The U.S. pays twice as much as any other country for health care. Let's eliminate as many parasites as possible. Medicine is a fine art, not an exact science. We can't afford the trial lawyers and high level insurance execs.

12-05-2011 , 03:52 PM

#140

ikestoys

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Btw, my wife has had 4 bouts of shingles in the past 6 months. This is almost assuredly has something to do with an immune deficiency caused by an autoimmune process. Chances of the PCP knowing enough about this type of problem to feel comfortable treating her are about 0. Somehow, the pcp will know to kick this up the chain.

12-05-2011 , 03:52 PM

#141

MrWookie

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Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 94,159

Quote:

Originally Posted by dinopoker

The problem here is that health care is by nature complex. For example, say a person comes in and tells you that they're suffering from fatigue, a slight fever, and some arthritic-type pain in their joints. Would you diagnose them as just needing bed rest, which would be the case in probably 90% of patients, or would you also be able to recognize those as early signs of lupus? If someone has a persistent headache, is it because they've been drinking too much coffee, or is it a brain tumor? What about a baby that won't stop crying? Is it just colic, or is it an ear infection? How does a non MD make these determinations?

Everyone knows...

Spoiler:

12-05-2011 , 03:53 PM

#142

ikestoys

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Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 94,424

god ****ing dammit how did i miss that joke.

12-05-2011 , 03:56 PM

#143

MrWookie

Don't Call Me Meredith

Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 94,159

Quote:

Originally Posted by ikestoys

Last two trips I've taken to the ER for needing stitches, the fiancee and I were both sewn up by NPs. The fiancee, however, was seen by another NP who saw that her hand wasn't working right and referred her to a hand specialist who performed a delicate nerve operation.

12-05-2011 , 03:58 PM

#144

ikestoys

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Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 94,424

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrWookie

NPs do about 20% of the lac repairs in the ER I volunteer in. 75% are done by residents (which is pretty funny to watch when they come in july), the final 5% are done by attendings.

12-05-2011 , 04:11 PM

#145

TheWorm967

grinder

Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 642

Quote:

Originally Posted by dinopoker

Actually a "great" system would be one where anytime you went in with any symptom at all, you got every test in the book to make sure you didn't have that rare ailment. However in the real world that's cost prohibitive, so we have to find a solution that balances the needs of the patient with the real world requirements for cost. You want to limit the situations where a full, 8-year educated doctor is required, whereas in reality a simpler solution might be to just socialize the whole thing. Then everyone can get the maximum amount of care available and the costs can be controlled by a central authority and everyone benefits. Other than the hated 'socialism' word, what's wrong with that?

I'm speechless, everyone benefits except the people whose money was stolen to pay for it.

12-05-2011 , 04:21 PM

#146

renodoc

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Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 8,357

Quote:

Originally Posted by rjoefish

Get robots and chimps there and start paying doctors 1/5 what they make now. Problem solved?

this is a very common misconception.

Cutting physician's fees (like the 28% they will be cut in 3 weeks without congressional action- LMAO) will barely scratch the surface of the problem.

12-05-2011 , 04:25 PM

#147

suzzer99

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Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 99,984

Quote:

Originally Posted by 13ball

The last crappy HMO I had I never saw a doctor once - just NP the whole time. That office sucked big time though. I had to wait over an hour every time I went, and call like 7 times just to get some x-ray results. While I'm waiting I get to hear the receptionist deal with irate patient after irate patient.

Anyway I'm not slamming the idea of NPs, just saying they are being used a lot for simple diagnosis currently.

12-05-2011 , 04:26 PM

#148

suzzer99

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Quote:

Originally Posted by TheWorm967

I'm speechless, everyone benefits except the people whose money was stolen to pay for it.

Oh god not another one of you.

So when one of you with no health insurance like The Steam goes to the ER for a car wreck or major illness, and walks away from a $300k bill, is that stealing or not?

12-05-2011 , 04:30 PM

#149

rjoefish

Got Out the Vote

Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 31,086

Quote:

Originally Posted by renodoc

this is a very common misconception.

Cutting physician's fees (like the 28% they will be cut in 3 weeks without congressional action- LMAO) will barely scratch the surface of the problem.

Quote:

CBO has recently estimated that an update, based on the standard Medicare Economic Index, would amount to a 10-year cost of $352.7 billion

So 80/27.4 = ~2.92 x 352.7B$ = ~1.03T$. Seems like more of a scratch to me! I'm really like this idea of robots and chimps.

12-05-2011 , 05:06 PM

#150

TheWorm967

grinder

Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 642

Quote:

Originally Posted by suzzer99

Well it probably shouldn't cost 300k no matter what's being done, and it's not like we were leaving people to die in the street before government healthcare programs. We have a responsibility to give a human being care if they are in need.

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