So you're saying that more exposure to leftist ideas makes them more popular. Intriguing. I would like to subscribe to your newsletter.


The solution to the failure of incrementalism being more incrementalism is a pretty ****ing tough sell to me tbh.

1) Don't you see how this opens you up to every ****ing right wing attack anyway? They called national Romneycare a "government takeover"! For ****'s sake if you're gonna be centrist at least be authentically centrist, telling the left "don't worry, I'm just lying to these dunderheaded simpletons, for real we're doing full communism just later" alienates EVERYONE.

2) Compromise on what. With who.

3) WE DID THAT ALREADY. THAT WAS OBAMACARE.
Hahaha seriously it is insane you developed a portal between universes and you use it to argue with people from Earth 2(all of us) about health care.

Not sure how much can be learned from (a version of) single payer failing as a ballot measure. Obamacare would have failed as a ballot measure bigly. Its support was something like 40% at the time, and this is as it was being sold by President Obama after crushing in a wave election.

Yo ***** you don't get to talk down to people until you develop a ****ing thesis.


Max would you vote for Medicare for all?

Seriously anyone who is made uneasy by the sort of muscular, determined egalitarianism that DVaut and I are proposing here are definitely suspected kulaks, but more importantly, WE HAVE A PLAN.

You have ****ing nothing. NOTHING. We aren't debating between Plan A and Plan B, we're debating between Plan B and NOTHING after trying Plan A for 8 ****ing years resulted in absolute ****ing disaster! I have no ****ing idea what makes internet people see a debate where one side LITERALLY ADMITS THEY DON'T HAVE ANY IDEAS and still wants to find a ****ing compromise.

"The polls are flawed" OK maybe they are. So what should we do instead?

"Republicans will say it's communism" Oh they'll do that no matter what, but what should we do instead?

You have nothing and it ****ing eats at you. But kids, I voted for Hillary too. You can just change your mind when presented with new information. Bend the knee, because we offer a path forward while Max appears PASSIONATE about losing in the meekest imaginable way.

As I said:

Having said that, I remain confident that mass popular support for single payer is actually genuine and the problem is at the elite and professional activist level that trends towards establishment interests who aren't that great in number.

But yes, I agree one self-admitted weakness of my argument is that Tilted Donkey, hobbes and iron types actually may not want single payer at all and the "well I obviously want single payer, great idea, but CHERRY PICKED POLLS sorry when given the choice between single payer and Lamar Alexander's proposal, gotta side with Lamar Alexander on this" is so hilariously inchoate that you can only conclude they are lying and want nothing at all to do with single payer.

Yes, it sounded like a good plan, and no, for the reasons I mentioned. I answered the question. If state Democratic leaders and important activists aligned with the left come out against the bill then the results are unsurprising. If the national Democrats are as disorganized as the ballot measure in Colorado was, then I agree my advice is wrong. Part of what I am suggesting is that people apply democratic pressure (small-d) to politicians to not allow the Democratic politicians to oppose the plan and that we're careful to make sure to not ignore things like repealing the Hyde Amendment. It seems like that was a practical mistake by the group that crafted the ballot measure although the details of why the proponents of the Colorado ballot measure didn't address restrictions on state-funded abortion are unclear.

Relevant, since I basically plagiarized from it earlier:

https://medium.com/@freddiedeboer/yo...s-f018e2bb38a2

Or you know, let Lamar Alexander determine the terms of the debate and assume he's a good faith operator. Or nothing. Simply do nothing, but don't be too loud and preachy asking for popular things, that would be CHERRY PICKING, the worst sin an ideologue can do.

I was there. I was the "I really like Bernie but let's get behind Hillary for the sake of unity, and to avoid the worst. This will only work incrementally" Then the worst happened and the folly became obvious. At least when I'm wrong and we lose and get our face kicked in (see 2016), I adapt. The "I tried nothing and I'm all out of ideas, Lamar Alexander/Joe Manchin 2020!" crowd appear to have literally no ability to adjust to new information nor any sort of deep ideas about what they want other than slightly less than heinous Republican ideas. I let max off the hook a little bit because max is basically a right-winger but others have less excuses.

But yes, I agree one self-admitted weakness of my argument is that Tilted Donkey, hobbes and iron types actually may not want single payer at all

I'm agnostic. Medicare sort of works most of the time. It's administrated about as well as any government program can be, is pretty much universally accepted, and pays reasonably (kind of) I think that incrementally moving people to Medicare, or a Medicare like system is potentially doable, and at least there is a framework in place to work with instead of trying to craft an entire new scaffold to hang health care off of. I'm not optimistic about this happening with the orange clown in the WH, but I think (hope) he's like a drunk wandering in traffic - it's not a question of when he's going down, it's when.

Medicare kind of works because it changes pretty much yearly - stuff gets added, less stuff gets taken away and people (mostly) don't lose their **** every time a change is made, probably because its been part of the landscape for so long. Setting up a de novo plan that you can get thru the house and senate is a much bigger ask.

"The polls are flawed" OK maybe they are. So what should we do instead?

**** the polls. Or at least, **** trying to use the polls as a justification for doing something, because someone the next day is going to come out with a shinier poll that shows the exact opposite because the question is tweaked.

"Republicans will say it's communism" Oh they'll do that no matter what, but what should we do instead?

Agree 100% for most of them. I kind of think the Euros have a lot more experience with this sort of weird situation where some sort of bastard coalition has to be scraped together to form some sort of government - The GOP is like a bunch of Balkan republics that hate each other but are stuck together to stay in power. I don't see how long it can hold together - especially when the ringmaster has essentially NO political instincts or abilities that we've seen.

MM MD

the colorado plan was extremely vague about where the tax money to pay for it would come from. all i could ever find was a bunch of non-specific mumbo jumbo about increased payroll tax on businesses and state income tax on residents. there was also a gigantic PR effort against it on the part of various business organizations and right wing lobbying groups to further muddy the waters

apart from being unable to articulate any real basis for your position other than "liberals lose elections", firing shots at a benchwarmer is supposed to reflect well on you?

I rarely feel compelled to speak on behalf of an entire nation, but in this case its warranted. We don't care that you have a plan. Nobody asked you for a plan. Nobody was waiting for you to come up with one, much less pay you to come up with election strategy. We're all going to 100% ignore your plan because its 100% irrelevant.

But A for effort, gold star, way to go buddy!!!! etc Maybe email it to me and I'll find room on the fridge for the Fly/Dvaut1 election strategy.

that's because you're a white dude with a cushy finance job and no matter how heinous any republican president is, you'll probably be ok. sweet privilege bro

I don't why you'd want bi-partisanship with Republicans in the first place. They have no vision or what healthcare should be, they just know it shouldn't be Democrats who enact it. So Democrats have free reign to run the gamut with ANY plan they want as long as it'll fulfill what people want, to pay less for healthcare.

If we want a Switzerland-like healthcare policy that's fine, but that comes with highly regulating the insurance companies, severely curtailing their profit, beefing up the individual mandate including garnishing wages and/or jail time, locking down drug companies, etc.

Basically you can't really sleepwalk your way through this, you're going to have to pick fights in order to get done what people say they want done, unless you want to end up with a mismash system that fails to do anything because anything that pushes up against something we just cave.

ACA was bipartisan and they all voted against it and slammed it anyway. Compromise is pointless now.

Yeah. And if we switch to single payer and it sucks I'll be completely isolated from that as well. Single payer to me will just be a tax hike. I'm completely fine with it, because people like me should pay more taxes. I don't think i ever really deny my privilege, so not sure why you mention it.

Yeah, i don't see any point in negotiating with republicans. But you're forced to negotiate with centrists dems or face Trump like levels of winning an election and not being able to do anything after.

It'll be hard to get anthropomorphic Pfizer pill Cory Booker on board.

Just another Kulak we the majority must eliminate.

That chart DVAult posted shows single payer support going from 43 to 44, opposition going from 50 to 47.

Both are almost certainly within statistical error.

If Single Payer is getting more popular, it's not by much.

Uh huh. This seems calm and reasonable.

Ok, and this is where your parents income level has apparently gotten you to forget that fundamentally you and everyone you work with are ****ing morons:

1) Are you one of those centrist dems?

2) What, precisely, do you want that we should compromise with? You lead this negotiation with "Single payer to me will just be a tax hike. I'm completely fine with it, because people like me should pay more taxes." so tbh I think I'm chill with Medicare for All 2018, accept no substitute.

Again, there's a ****ing reason your parents had to get you into finance instead of a real job. You don't have the intellectual wattage for this ****, son. You're not moral enough to be honest and you're not clever enough to lie convincingly.

Big Boy Grizy can subtract! Gold Star for Big Boy Grizy.

How are you so ****ing obtuse that you're still making these posts 3 levels deep of me clowning on you guys for making these nonsensical appeals to popularity instead of the merits?

I think this situation has to be diffused. Perhaps you can start by remembering that at least the two of you agree about ME.

Countries without single payer do very well. Germany and Switzerland immediately come to mind. Indeed, most systems cited by supporters of single payer is better described as hybrids along the Obamacare (with a functioning mandate and viable markets) and Medicare for all spectrum.

I have said in other threads that I am all for UHC, even a public option. I just don't think the best way to get there is single payer, and not just for political reasons.

i mention it because of how flippantly you declare that you dont care, nobody cares, you dont need a plan, you're gonna blah blah blah and GFY dvaut and fly with your grand visions of equality and helping people...you're talking like a selfish *******, so it's worth mentioning that you're being a selfish *******.

Don't you have, like, a million dollars?

I'm sure we'd have single payer if only we could come up with a good enough guillotine for you and your ilk.