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Old 06-08-2016, 06:28 AM   #101
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Re: Brexit Referendum

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Originally Posted by CityBoy2006 View Post
And in their current numbers, have had a crippling effect on the wages/housing/school places/hospital availability of the working class.

Obviously they have an economic benefit in terms of overall GDP. No-one has ever disputed that.

.
Its not about GDP its about the fiscal return, you know, the money used to build hospitals etc.
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Old 06-08-2016, 06:29 AM   #102
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Re: Brexit Referendum

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there's no reason to think they lower wages or working conditions for people already in the uk. they're complements as much as they're supplements.
Read the article.

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/what-workin...ration-1561735
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Old 06-08-2016, 07:05 AM   #103
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Re: Brexit Referendum

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i have. it doesnt change anything. when we actually look at what happens we find that there's no loss of wages from immigration.
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Old 06-08-2016, 07:25 AM   #104
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Re: Brexit Referendum

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i have. it doesnt change anything. when we actually look at what happens we find that there's no loss of wages from immigration.
Of course there are. Its impossible to unionise or press for higher wages and better working conditions if labour can be switched on and off like a tap and there's no shortage whatsoever of people willing to lift boxes for Ģ7 per hour in appalling conditions.

If there were, then companies like Amazon would have to pay more to attract the labour. Its simple supply/demand.

Bob Crow (union leader) knew this, Tony Benn (far-left socialist Labour party stalwart knew this). At some level, the only bargaining chip the working class have to play is 'I'm not going that, for that.'

Anyway, there's little point trying to argue. I work in the City of London - it doesn't bother me other than having my toes trodden on on the Northern line in the morning.

However, it's worth bearing in mind that 52% of the public voted either Conservative or UKIP at the last GE and the mainstream left-wing Labour Party is unelectable, in meltdown and could conceivably never be elected ever again in its current guise.

Nothing will change if people cover their ears and simply shout "lalala I'm not listening immigration is double-plus-good lalala" to even the most patient and cautious explanation offered (as in last night's debate by a brown Asian guy) that his kids struggled to get into overcrowded local schools, that they had to all share a room in an overprice house and that the waiting list for an NHS appointment was a month long. You'll just find out the hard way at the ballot box.
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Old 06-08-2016, 07:30 AM   #105
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Re: Brexit Referendum

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Its not about GDP its about the fiscal return, you know, the money used to build hospitals etc.
Houses, schools, hospitals and sustainable infrastructure don't magically appear with each penny that drops into the exchequer.

It is not possible to build houses at the rate of 8 per minute to track current population growth. Let alone build new schools, hospitals, increase roads and train transport, power etc. Even if everyone who comes into the country contributes (such as all the highly skilled members of my team!) it doesn't pay for these things over night. On top of that, you need to train new teachers, new nurses, new doctors, new engineers to build the above. etc etc etc.

Yes, long term it may be good. But we are putting massive and harmful stresses on our society and infrastructure. We need control of immigration and our own borders, and we need to introduce targeted immigration centred around key skills.

Incidentally, do you know how much skilled, beneficial immigration we have to turn down from the likes of Malaysia, Brazil, Mexico, the US, Australia and Russia etc. because we're committed to the EU/migrants can bring their families over and our government is desperately trying to get the net figure down by any means?

Its actually ****ing hard to immigrate to the UK if you're a Mexican scientist or Malaysian quant etc. with no immediate family in the UK/no EU passport.

Ridiculous that these are the people who are kept out in return for another Lithuanian barista.
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Old 06-08-2016, 07:34 AM   #106
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Re: Brexit Referendum

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Its simple supply/demand.
people always say this, but it misses so much. immigrants are both supply and demand. and they're both complements and supplements. maybe some factory is in poland or china instead if not for the immigrant workers or builders. maybe it doesnt get built at all. you have to look at the entire picture and when we do we find basically no loss of wages.

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However, it's worth bearing in mind that 52% of the public voted either Conservative or UKIP at the last GE and the mainstream left-wing Labour Party is unelectable, in meltdown and could conceivably never be elected ever again in its current guise.

Nothing will change if people cover their ears and simply shout "lalala I'm not listening immigration is double-plus-good lalala" to even the most patient and cautious explanation offered (as in last night's debate by a brown Asian guy) that his kids struggled to get into overcrowded local schools, that they had to all share a room in an overprice house and that the waiting list for an NHS appointment was a month long. You'll just find out the hard way at the ballot box.
im not even a left of centre but that doesnt change anything. people are more often than not going to vote against immigration even when they have no good reason for it. pretending that they have a reason when they dont will not make it better.

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Old 06-08-2016, 07:47 AM   #107
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Re: Brexit Referendum

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Houses, schools, hospitals and sustainable infrastructure don't magically appear with each penny that drops into the exchequer.

It is not possible to build houses at the rate of 8 per minute to track current population growth. Let alone build new schools, hospitals, increase roads and train transport, power etc. Even if everyone who comes into the country contributes (such as all the highly skilled members of my team!) it doesn't pay for these things over night. On top of that, you need to train new teachers, new nurses, new doctors, new engineers to build the above. etc etc etc.

Yes, long term it may be good. But we are putting massive and harmful stresses on our society and infrastructure. We need control of immigration and our own borders, and we need to introduce targeted immigration centred around key skills.

Incidentally, do you know how much skilled, beneficial immigration we have to turn down from the likes of Malaysia, Brazil, Mexico, the US, Australia and Russia etc. because we're committed to the EU/migrants can bring their families over and our government is desperately trying to get the net figure down by any means?

Its actually ****ing hard to immigrate to the UK if you're a Mexican scientist or Malaysian quant etc. with no immediate family in the UK/no EU passport.

Ridiculous that these are the people who are kept out in return for another Lithuanian barista.
We need to build 4 Million houses a year because we have 300K immigrants a year?

We could build a **** ton more houses in this country if it were not for retarded planning rules and nimbyism.

Last two bolded just show your inherent racism.
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European immigrants who arrived since 2000 are on average better educated than natives (in 2011, 25% of immigrants from A10 countries and 62% of those from EU-15 countries had a university degree, while the comparable share is 24% among natives) and have higher employment rates (81% for A10, 70% for EU-15 and 70% for UK natives in 2011).
The value of the education of immigrants in the UK labour market who arrived since 2000 and that has been paid for in the immigrants’ origin countries amounts to Ģ6.8bn over the period between 2000 and 2011. By contributing to ‘pure’ public goods (such as defence or basic research), immigrants arriving since 2000 have saved the UK taxpayer an additional Ģ8.5bn over the same period.
The idea that there might be a shortage of Quants because of Lithuanian baristas is just poppycock.

Last edited by O.A.F.K.1.1; 06-08-2016 at 07:53 AM.
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Old 06-08-2016, 08:36 AM   #108
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Re: Brexit Referendum

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Last two bolded just show your inherent racism.
Who am I racist against?
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Old 06-08-2016, 08:40 AM   #109
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Re: Brexit Referendum

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Im not even a left of centre but that doesnt change anything. people are more often than not going to vote against immigration even when they have no good reason for it. pretending that they have a reason when they dont will not make it better.
I picture you similarly to how the faces of the audience in the debate last night looked when the man who said he has to wait 4 weeks to see a doctor and can't get his kids into the local school was inconveniently enough, a brown-skinned Asian chap.

Let's get one thing straight; do you believe that immigration has any negative effects whatsoever (even if they're outweighed by the positives which is something I've said from the word go)? Straight yes or no will do fine.
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Old 06-08-2016, 09:20 AM   #110
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Re: Brexit Referendum

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I picture you similarly to how the faces of the audience in the debate last night looked when the man who said he has to wait 4 weeks to see a doctor and can't get his kids into the local school was inconveniently enough, a brown-skinned Asian chap.
when immigrants, like those from the eu, pay more in taxes than they get out it they lower the waiting time at the doctor and create more school places.

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Let's get one thing straight; do you believe that immigration has any negative effects whatsoever (even if they're outweighed by the positives which is something I've said from the word go)? Straight yes or no will do fine.
the groups that steal railway cables and stuff like that are jerks.
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Old 06-08-2016, 09:35 AM   #111
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Re: Brexit Referendum

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another Lithuanian barista.
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Who am I racist against?
The bolded might not be strictly "racist" however it is deeply bigoted.
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Old 06-08-2016, 09:36 AM   #112
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Re: Brexit Referendum

I repeat the inconvenient questions;

Do you believe that immigration in the current numbers has any negative effects whatsoever?

Do you believe that every single individual in the UK benefits from net immigration at 330k p/y?

Do you believe that there is any upper limit to the net migration figure past which it would start to present any issues? 1Mn per year? 2Mn per year?

Do you believe that any country, anywhere, is making a mistake by having anything less than completely open borders?

Anyway; I'll more or less leave it there. As I say, I don't have low-skilled migrants competing for my job and frankly I'd far rather employ a Polish plumber who'd work far more cheaply than some typical geezer taking 3 ***/tea breaks an hour and charging me far more. I benefit from migration and I'll be voting to remain as I stand to benefit from cheap labour and the increasing price of my house. But if you think its completely clear-cut for everyone, you're very much mistaken.
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Old 06-08-2016, 09:40 AM   #113
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Re: Brexit Referendum

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The bolded might not be strictly "racist" however it is deeply bigoted.
Cool nw I'll just have to be a big ol' horrible bigot then won't I.

#tellitlikeitis
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Old 06-08-2016, 09:41 AM   #114
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Re: Brexit Referendum

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that his kids struggled to get into overcrowded local schools, that they had to all share a room in an overprice house and that the waiting list for an NHS appointment was a month long. You'll just find out the hard way at the ballot box.
These problems are all much more attributable to austerity than they are immigration.

You are starting from the hypothesis that if these problems exist they must de facto be caused by immigration, that is simply not even remotely true.

I mean everyone says immigration is forcing up house prices, lets price interest at closer to historical norm of 8% and see how fast house prices rise......

Immigration might be a factor pushing on house prices, but it is only a exacerbation of the real underlying cause, cheap credit.
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Old 06-08-2016, 09:45 AM   #115
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Re: Brexit Referendum

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Cool nw I'll just have to be a big ol' horrible bigot then won't I.

#tellitlikeitis
Its not remotely tellitlikeitis(nt), as the empirical data tells us.

Tellitlikeitis is like the quintessential defence of the bigot.
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Old 06-08-2016, 09:54 AM   #116
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Re: Brexit Referendum

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Anyway; I'll more or less leave it there. As I say, I don't have low-skilled migrants competing for my job and frankly I'd far rather employ a Polish plumber who'd work far more cheaply than some typical geezer taking 3 ***/tea breaks an hour and charging me far more. I benefit from migration and I'll be voting to remain as I stand to benefit from cheap labour and the increasing price of my house. But if you think its completely clear-cut for everyone, you're very much mistaken.
Wasnt the story last time that it's your parents house that you might inherit some day? Condolences if I stepped in something here.

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Do you believe that immigration in the current numbers has any negative effects whatsoever?

Do you believe that every single individual in the UK benefits from net immigration at 330k p/y?

Do you believe that there is any upper limit to the net migration figure past which it would start to present any issues? 1Mn per year? 2Mn per year?

Do you believe that any country, anywhere, is making a mistake by having anything less than completely open borders?
Are we we talking EU immigration? If yes, then it's an advantage to everyone and will be so long as we dont assume some absurd scenario. It would be a mistake for any EU country to restrict free movement in union.

I dont know about crime numbers and stuff like that, but that might be a disadvantage and it certainly is for those affected.
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Old 06-08-2016, 09:58 AM   #117
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Re: Brexit Referendum

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If yes, then it's an advantage to everyone and will be so long as we dont assume some absurd scenario.
Ah interesting. So the 1Mn I suggested is an 'absurd scenario' which rather implies that you *do* agree that there is indeed an upper limit beyond which net migration presents certain issues - you simply don't think we'll ever reach that limit.

Which, I hasten to add, is a completely fair enough belief.

Anyway; as its a number that we'll never reach. Because (as you say), its absurd. Where is that number pray tell? I wonder if you could tell me where that limit lies?
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Old 06-08-2016, 10:08 AM   #118
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Re: Brexit Referendum

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Ah interesting. So the 1Mn I suggested is an 'absurd scenario' which rather implies that you *do* agree that there is indeed an upper limit beyond which net migration presents certain issues - you simply don't think we'll ever reach that limit.

Which, I hasten to add, is a completely fair enough belief.

Anyway; as its a number that we'll never reach. Because (as you say), its absurd. Where is that number pray tell? I wonder if you could tell me where that limit lies?
I didnt mean 1Mn a year as absurd number at all. As long as they behave similar to those arriving now 1Mn would be good.

I meant something like millions showing up at the same time for completely different reasons than we're currently seeing.
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Old 06-08-2016, 10:16 AM   #119
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Re: Brexit Referendum

Lol at a million immigrants a year being a good thing.
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Old 06-08-2016, 10:23 AM   #120
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Re: Brexit Referendum

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Lol at a million immigrants a year being a good thing.
when a group has an employment rate of 81%, or whatever it is, then you should try to get as many as possible.
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Old 06-08-2016, 10:50 AM   #121
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Re: Brexit Referendum

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Lol at a million immigrants a year being a good thing.
Haha see what I mean right?

You can be like me - someone who values immigration - someone who benefits from it and appreciates it and wants to maintain very porous borders in order to access as many of the skillsets from other countries as possible (and indeed *lower* our immigration restrictions to those coming from outside the EU) and has said repeatedly that migrants are good for the economy - but if you even suggest that there might be:

1) an upper limit
2) anyone whatsoever who doesn't entirely benefit from migration
3) that by and large, we could probably calibrate our immigration policy to a greater benefit (more Brazilian/Malaysian quants/architects and fewer Polish/Lithuanian baristas)

you'll wind up with the likes of daca parroting the platitudes of his Facebook wall at you.

Anyway. Never mind - we'll see how things develop
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Old 06-08-2016, 11:58 AM   #122
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Re: Brexit Referendum

If you actually read what you have actually posted ITT and compare it with your yea immigrations great but schtick, you are completely FOS, and I will be happy to quote bomb to prove that.

All your arguments amount to is without any substantiation de facto blaming a number of social problems on immigration, all of which have numerous mulit factoral causes and make bigoted claims about the skill sets of immigrants.

I can see why someone who works in finance would want to do that, but you have to show a lot more work.
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Old 06-08-2016, 06:51 PM   #123
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Re: Brexit Referendum

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The implication is that the British working class are coddled and lazy.


That happen in Italy too and other countries, even in mine, that is poor- when they come to UE (Romanians and stuff like that).

Here people donīt do it for such low when they go to other countries.

Know truck drivers in UK that refuse to do international, Romanians do that for pennys ( less than working national lol). They said noone from UK or other countries do that job, only Ukranians, Romanians, etc.

In Italy people could make 5k€ month driving, when they came... now its at 2k€ salary.

Here itīs the same. They do it almost for free and if can, without even stop to rest lol.

There is a problem of inspection... and not only in the UK. Itīs kinda crazzy you have worker A from like Italy working for X and worker B from Romanian doing it for 50% less @ same company.

I understand the UK problem, but itīs not only in the UK...

That implication its BS. People here are lazzy too.. when they go work to another place they work harder, itīs normal.

Problem itīs that companies from all the UE are willing to accept this stuff. Paying as less as possible to migrants ( most from same places) , ****ing their countries without even realize it.
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Old 06-08-2016, 06:56 PM   #124
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Re: Brexit Referendum

Iīm curious.
Lotīs of people that i know that work in UK say the british are xenophobic, itīs that true?
One that i know well is in UK since 1997 and say that ; he only know 1 or 2 "nice" british people, others didn't even look to him or compliment.
Even when he had a nice job and good salary people refuse to rent him a house...

Itīs kinda sick that.

Itīs like that?
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Old 06-08-2016, 07:53 PM   #125
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Re: Brexit Referendum

So, if i am following, we all agree that:

- Immigrants are good for the economy
- Increasing the wealth of the nation building hospitals, houses, schools and so on is good
- Jobs are not a finite resource
- Immigrants are almost universally hard working law abiding individuals who want to help themselves and their family

And yet somehow some people think immigration is bad?

We can sustain about +150k net annually and to get to a peak of +330k, which will drop off as other European economies improve, we just need to invest in fabulous infrastructure to improve the lives of people here and who will end up here.

Just build more houses and hospitals and schools. We can borrow at a super low rate of around 3-3.5% and that will net tax returns much larger than the cost of investment.

The big problem is idiots. Idiots driving debate that "there are too many immigrants coming here enriching our lives funding pensions and the nhs etc that will be massively over stretched by an aging population" so the idiots they elect have to pretend they can, let alone should, lower immigration. So now we have stupid people demanding stupid policies that don't actually fix the problems that come from a good sustainable rate of immigration if we take even the slightest attempt to make it sustainable.

Should we build a new city? Nah let's just pretend we will somehow lower immigration by 65% and stunt economy growth harming all British citizens. What could possible go wrong?

How is doing the only logical sane thing somehow brave now. I want a politician to be brave to just agree with what numerous studies prove. Immigration is always good. For everyone. Wages don't get lowered. Migrants create more jobs than they occupy.

This is before we even get into why i am supposed to care more about a poor Scot than a poor Romanian. Especially if the argument is the Romanian wants to do a job at a lower price than the Scot.
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