We are talking about the workforce, each year as you say the workforce will diminish by Y and it will be added to by those entering the workforce, this compromises mostly of teenagers/youths and immigrants, so comparing the amount of both of those for example purposes is utterly fine.

You still show no work AT ALL by which the actual mechanism happens whereby we balance our currency in some magical equilibrium so that our tariff reductions make it ok to pay the tariffs other countries still impose on us because our currency is weak enough to make our exports cheap but still magically strong enough to keep our imports and hence input costs down to a level wherby making stuff in this country remains competitive.

This is some balancing act and just saying well yea markets will do it, is not even remotely close to an adequate answer.

The bit I don't believe you actually think is that

1) Currently

Input from RoW plus EU tariff used to manufacture product sold in RoW

2) after Brexit

Input from RoW used to manufacture product sold in RoW.

.. I don't believe someone as well-informed as you thinks the value of pound has an impact on how much our use of that input would cost our RoW customers in their own currencies. I also believe you think the EU tariff does increase the cost.

I believe you're "debating" it out of an emotional loyalty to Europe. That's fine, plenty of the Brexiters are flag-waving loons anyway who had already decided to vote out before they heard any arguments. it's only fair to have a few on the other side.

The emotional loyalty to Europe is fine. My wife is from Europe, I live in Europe, if you tell me an amount in pounds I convert it in my head to Euros. If you tell me a woman's weight in stones I convert it to kilos. It's outside the scope of politics so I didn't mention it above but having decent weather is another important impact on quality of life. The EU is wrecking Europe though.

slovakian culture is so great that only 8% of them voted for neo-nazis last time. and fico is horrible too. they might not be the best way to make the case against cosmopolitan liberalism.

but obviously it's always the immigrants/minorities/others at fault. if they work, if they dont work, if they live everywhere, if they live in clusters. destroying our culture just by existing.

Answer the question.

Your diatribe about things I dont believe dont even make sense.

Want to be clear here, you are saying the price of OIL which is denominated in Dollars has no effect on the end price of a good manufactured in the UK and sold in the EU?

I'm an immigrant in Slovakia and I'm treated with respect so you're obviously misinformed. But no it isn't a cosmopolitan state like Britain. For example I know a girl of Indian descent who was amazed that the only language hospital nurses speak is Slovak and there are no English translators provided like her mother had in Britain for Gujarati.

The somewhat unexpected 8% is the result of telling people they have to clear up all the messes caused by Merkel's continually breaking EU treaties and enabling the Mediterranean countries to break them - in the process nearly destroying the euro and Schengen, which unlike Britain are/were popular here. They won't get into parliament next time.

Just want to be clear that you understand that in a vacuum of all other considerations, a weak currency increases the price of inputs to UK industry/Business.

Not understanding that would make your comments make sense.

that's great bro. just dont tell these guys that you're roma or jewish or gay or anything else that's on the current list of things to hate



but sure it's always everyone else's fault.

I've seen Minford (leader of the fringe group that it pro-Brexit economists) quoted earlier. He envisions a post-Brexit UK with zero tariffs where he admits that manufacturing jobs would disappear. That's like the polar opposite of what most Brexit voters want.

It makes no sense to use what that guy says to justify a Brexit vote. Even if you happen to be one of the few who actually understand and like his hardcore free-trade scenario, you have to realize that it's politically impossible and will never ever happen.

Near to 100% confidence that Lektor does not understand it, has just trotted out economist in favour in Brexit because they are very rare.

Someone seeking the truth would compare either:
new "native" workers (i don't much like that term but its what people are using)
new EU workers,
retiring/leaving native workers and
retiring/leaving EU workers

OR

net change in native workers and
net change in EU workers.

You comparison of the net change in EU workers and new "native" workers is obviously an attempt to trick people.

No. I'm saying that assuming the same dollar-euro rate, the value of the pound has no impact on how much the price of oil used (in dollars) works through to the final cost of a product in euros - I was talking about the RoW as that's obviously the major market but that part also applies to Europe.

No you don't.

What Minford actually said:



LOOOOOOOOOOL, you could not make this **** up.

The thing is it does. I really want you to drill down on why you think it does not. You refuse everytime I ask you.

I hope we brexit.

The topic is an emotive one and those saying that so-called "emotional arguments" are invalid need a reality check, not least because without fail those remainers that are leveling such assertions are at the minimum comfortable, white collar folk who are forming all their opinions and conducting all their analyses in a hypothetical and intellectual vacuum. Some of those with emotional arguments have been directly affected by real-life consequences of some of the issues around which this referendum debate circulates and I would say their perspective is plenty valid (google the bob geldof/fishing boat/thames fiasco for a fine example).

If you live in a slice of middle England where everybody you are exposed to on a day-to-day basis is a white, professional, English-speaking, jovial face then your opinions on "the immigration issue" are idealist, hypothetical, academic and ultimately vacuous. You can say anything you want so long as it looks good and conforms to a few social, economic and philosophical norms. If the area you live in, the schools your children attend, the hospital you go to etc. are gradually filling with foreign nationals who do not speak the language, do not understand the culture, do not make any attempt to integrate into the local area or the country in general; who have vastly different social norms from you and your family, you might stop and re-evaluate, for "emotional" reasons. And would your opinion suddenly then become that of a heathen? Should we still embrace unbridled movement of people through an unregulated border because it is "always good for the economy" or, even worse, because to speak out against such a thing is automatically branded as racist? For those that think that the only folk that come here, come here to work for low wages and "do jobs Brits wouldn't do", your eyes would be opened.

The strain on our public services is tremendous, and is not being felt in real terms by the comfortable classes so much as it is by the lower, welfare, working and lower-middle classes.

My main gripe with the EU however, by a long shot, remains the fact that they are a foreign, un-elected group of clipboard-grabbing bureaucrats with absolute final say-so over our affairs. This simply cannot be good for our country or our people, there is no more blunt way of putting it. They will not have the best interests of this country at heart, or the people of this country, and will almost certainly not even have a vague notion of what such a thing might be. Instead, like some of the voices on this forum, their only motivation and interest will be the proliferation of big business, the wealthy class who are involved in it, keeping a healthy set of figures on an Excel spreadsheet, and even worse, the proliferation of the EU itself in the name of self-preservation at all costs.

By brexiting we are at least allowing a glimmer of hope that the most vague whiff of a democratic process that operates in our ham-fisted political system might one day allow for a government that puts the concerns of the community, the family, the working man and the country before or on an equal par with those of corrupt FTSE100 organisations and their ilk. By remaining, we are f***ed.

What's the % of leaves who also fall into the camp which believes Scotland staying was the right thing?

A+

Z-, though I can see why it would be right up the street of someone who likes emotive waffle full of factual inaccuracies.

Probably one the most empty of actual meaningful content posts in the whole thread if we are going by words used.

Its basically a NO U post.

Its easy to see how every historic nationalistic excess has been legitimised under the guise of "We are doing it for the little guy".

Hey working class guys, yea its all the fault of [insert othered social group here.]

Oldest trick in the book and keeps on working apparently.

eu immigration is mainly healthy, working people. they ease the strain on public services because they contribute much more than they consume.

also isnt all the big cities where immigrants actually live voting remain? the people wanting to stop immigration is not actually the people living with a lot of immigrants.

Your location is an apt one.

I see the choice to escape from being an (albeit major) satellite of an undemocratic European superstate is the choice of hope.

To stay feels like a resignation of sovreignity and acceptance there is no better path.

I'm still undecided to be honest, and have been waiting for Remain to actually propose pushing for control of movement of unskilled labour in future negotiations, but not a sausage. It's all 'we are better off if we don't leave', and nothing more positive.

And, you know, **** the European Union.

Yea, there is a big correlation between those areas which have received the least immigration and the most EU funding and wanting to vote OUT.

Nothing irrational about OUT tho.

As I said, basically your post amounts to NO U.

The decision is basically a decision between a punch in the face (IN) and a massive kick in the balls (OUT).

IN have argued that a punch in the face hurts less a kick in the balls (negative)

OUT have argued that a kick in the balls does not hurt (HOPE).

This.