The death of brexit would be good to drink to.

It's what I want and I think you can be persauded (hopefully you can view this in your backwater)

It seems very clear that we are not going to be left out in the cold on our own and war has not broken out in Europe so it's pretty obvious that most of the Remainers claims were just Project Fear noise.

I'd also point out that the vote was not just about economics and the political aspects are just as important. A small economic loss for regained sovereignty would be a 'win' for many.

Another stupid post of yours.

Of course you know better than the Japanese government when it comes to business decisions of Nissan, Nomura, Honda and Hitachi. If these companies relocate to avoid tariffs so will other similar companies, and that will not by any means be a small loss.

How is it very clear when tje UK is still in the EU and haven't evoked article 50 yet. And this thread has explained several times why sovereignty was never in danger.

Yes it's insane. The BNP: "war has not broken out! we were right!" in reality, absolutely nothing has changed. like war would break out because one member said they might leave at some point in the future, but probably not! Same for all this "boomsday" nonsense. Why is PMI not back to positive because there has not been any brexit? Also we're poker players, we're supposed to understand these things - look at the long term graph ffs.

But we enjoy teasing remainers who conveniently forget the excess of both threat (eg 'end to Western Political Civilisation') and certainty stated about that threat during Project Fear.

Plus as a past poker player, i totally think the slightly declined UK economy for a few years that looks likely (but is by no means certain) is +EV longterm, as we uncouple from the shackles of the ridiculous EU project and its terrible economic decision making and control freakery

Remainers weren't necessarily any more impressed with the remain campaign than were Exiters, but are generally more progressive minded and more interested in the bigger picture.

I'm interested in the long term, bigger picture too.

Global trading > protectivist subgroup trading

The EU doesn't do trade globally?

Diebitter is a self-professsed ignoramus who had no idea which way he would vote until the day before the election - for research purposes he then watched some TV / read some news papers and Murdoch media swayed his opinion. Such was the power of the advertising campaign, this actually became his persona. Now he's 100% convinced the EU is "undemocratic" and "Britain First", "take back control" and such like. For lulz he posts like he is the first born of Nigel Farage, although maybe he actually has become a BNP supporter / anti-EU zealot through his "extensive" media research.

Basically a perfect example why a referendum was such a terrible idea.

Case in point: Brexiteers still clueless about what the EU is.

I mean, I would also vote to leave the fictional version of the EU that the Brexiteers have painted for themselves. But it's only just that: pure fiction. At best, it has a completely superficial relation with what the EU actually is (which the UK government is slowly discovering).

Yeah, us ignoramuses are terrible with our open minds and non dogmatic approaches to making decisions, unlike geniuses like yoyrself.

I always thought the EU was profoundly undemocratic, what I was waiting for was to see if the Remain camp would actually accept they needed to further try and fight against some of its more dognatic irrational edicts (ie those pushing towards federalisation without any recent mandate) and commit to that. Like those last minute promises they did on the Scottish vote. No dice. They had clearly given up even considering this.

If it was a vote between stay in an EU committed to self reform or leave, I'd proabably vote the former.

A vote between stay in EU that continues as before or leave, I vote the latter.

The EU is so terrible at its political and economic decision making (LOL the Euro for example), it will fall apart in the next 10 years anyway.

Hopefully the next European project on trade will have a more rational, democratic basis.

Sketch it out for us: What would a more rational,democratic European cooperation look like?

Free trade, some funding between riches states that feeds to poorer states to improve their infrastructure and help raise their GDP, commonality when dealing with crime, climate change and transport infrastructure. Cookie cutter bilateral agreements between all states. No common currency, but as little red tape as possible for currency conversions.

Trade is paramount with smaller poorer states given help to grow their own economies.

Each parliament is sovereign and decides its own taxation and borders.

No common currency

You are saying nothing on how the common rules will be decided. What "more democratic"model should be used?

Free trade by 378 bilateral agreements doesn't exactly sound more rational than the current single market model, to put it mildly.

people talking about free trade without dealing with the fact that most barriers to trade are not tariffs are infuriating. how do you deal with that without some common regulation? there's been a year talking about stuff. isnt it clear by now that trade is far more than just tariffs?

that's the reason the single market is so much better than a normal trade deal.

but mah "sovereignty"! Rupert wouldn't lie!

Ehh we are never going to agree. I think the EU in its current form is unfit for purpose, and the thing it aspires to be is terrible. Therefore I'm glad we are leaving it. If it aspired to be something worthwhile, id be fine with staying.

You see things a different way. Shame for you that thngs will change.

Au contraire. Shame for them that nothing will change they will have to watch the EU continue taking their values to their disastrous logical conclusion.

And as May takes their values to their logical disastrous conclusion all parties can point and laugh

The EU currently has free trade treatys with a bit more than 50 countries. Good luck renegotiate all these deals. And its not about that it will be impossible but it will be hugely time consuming. Free trade also means that every country can flood your market with cheap stuff probably subsidized by their government and could easily kill lots of jobs in your country. I mean I am all for free trade so that other people around the world can make a living too but its highly complicated and if you aren't willing to sacrifice a lot of your own people's jobs thats nothing you agree to very lightly. Wasn't alot of this immigration hate about having more jobs and better paid ones for you own people?

It's funny that all you guys that are pro EU... All your arguments seem to be 'its easier if you'd have stayed in'. You really dont have much positive to say about it other than that, it seems.


Just an observation.

It's interesting you mostly acknowledge its really never going to reform for the better too.

It feels like you are just accepting a poor situation because you can't envisage something better.

I can envisage better I just think it's very unlikely you end up with a better. You aren't telling anyone what better looks like though so it may be we differ on the grounds we are using to evaluate.