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Old 06-11-2017, 01:29 PM   #51
David Sklansky
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Re: Bernie Sanders vs the Religious Christian

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Originally Posted by Original Position View Post
I'm confused. Do people think these Christians go home at night and high-five each other because all the Muslims are condemned to hell? Christian theology, even the exclusivist variants, is usually pretty clear that Christians are supposed to have compassion and love towards nonbelievers.
Same for Muslims?
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Old 06-11-2017, 01:35 PM   #52
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Re: Bernie Sanders vs the Religious Christian

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Anyway, what I'm saying is more basic. Religious discrimination in hiring is wrong. Thus, I don't inquire about people's religious beliefs when I hire them.
What about if he is an astrologer, a Scientologist, or someone who has no religion but think it is morally right to kill abortion doctors?
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Old 06-11-2017, 01:36 PM   #53
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Re: Bernie Sanders vs the Religious Christian

Who cares
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Old 06-11-2017, 01:42 PM   #54
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Re: Bernie Sanders vs the Religious Christian

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What do you think I just did?

Let me guess, you are an American who gets his knowledge of Christianity from TV and the internet....
You spoke out against it. On the same Internet you criticized, ironically. And your statement consisted of a couple of sentences, directed towards ultra-left leaning, non-religious people, so I doubt they had much impact.

My knowledge of Christianity in practice comes from many sources, including plenty of real life interaction. Granted, many are open-minded, progressive people, and many others don't put all that much thought into social and cultural issues, but make no mistake: there are plenty of horrible ones. It's not just some infinitesimal number of far-right nuts.
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Old 06-11-2017, 01:57 PM   #55
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Re: Bernie Sanders vs the Religious Christian

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Citation needed.
You tried this in the other thread, which I imagine you do frequently, then ran and hid as soon as you got a response. I shouldn't waste my time indulging you, but, for the record:

http://www.pewforum.org/2016/05/12/c...-gay-marriage/

Overall support for SSM in this poll? 55%.
White evangelical Protestants? 27%. Black Protestants? 39%.

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank...homosexuality/

Only 54% of Christians overall - less than 5 in 9 - are accepting of homosexuality period.


http://www.abortionfacts.com/literat...ew-of-abortion

Here's a Christian-based rant about "Godless, secular people", followed by assertions that the Bible should control legal and social policy in this country.

https://mobile.twitter.com/pastorloc...Ctwgr%5Eauthor

Here's self-described ultra-conservative Christian pastor Greg Locke, who has a rather lengthy history of homophobic, anti-choice, extremist rhetoric, and recently made headlines for continually blasting Montel Williams over Williams' progressive stances on social issues.

http://www.pewforum.org/2017/01/11/p...on-abortion-2/

26%/74% split choice/life out of evangelical Protestants, those wonderfully progressive people.

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Old 06-11-2017, 02:05 PM   #56
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Re: Bernie Sanders vs the Religious Christian

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Hey Mr Sklansky, I don't know if you're still reading this but your mods would have banned this person and labeled him as having a "phobia" if instead of christians he said another religious group. The hypocricy is hilarious and I hope you have a chance to read this before my post is deleted.
I said nothing remotely ban-worthy. Those familiar with my posting know that I rarely, if ever, do.

I find all extremist, regressive religions repulsive. For example, many Muslims in the United States are good, fair, reasonable, hard-working people without crazy views, and I am quite fine with them recognizing and practicing their faith. I am against any ones embracing far-right views, Sharia Law, etc.
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Old 06-11-2017, 03:19 PM   #57
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Re: Bernie Sanders vs the Religious Christian

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What about if he is an astrologer, a Scientologist, or someone who has no religion but think it is morally right to kill abortion doctors?
None of these things have any relevance to the work my employees do, so yeah, no different.
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Old 06-11-2017, 03:28 PM   #58
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Re: Bernie Sanders vs the Religious Christian

But we are talking about approving a person for an important management position in government (public service).
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Old 06-11-2017, 03:51 PM   #59
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Re: Bernie Sanders vs the Religious Christian

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There's a bit of an equivocation going on, though: there are plenty of Christians who don't have this attitude toward other faiths, and it's frankly unfair to paint all of them with this brush by simply saying "I'm a Christian, period" in response to questions about his beliefs.
I agree that it would be unfair in a descriptive sense to claim that all Christians have this view. But Vought isn't trying to describe Christianity as a sociological artifact. He is a Christian. He probably thinks it is true that all non-believers go to hell. He probably thinks that Christians with different views are heretics, that is, they have views which they think are Christian, call Christian, but aren't actually Christian because they depart from God's message to the world.

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I think everyone here agrees, but it's a fair question as to how well this fellow can compartmentalize his views when he's interacting with Muslim co-workers. On the balance, I don't think anyone's shown evidence that he can't, but I get why folks are nervous.
Sure, I can understand people getting nervous. I just think they're being paranoid because they are ignorant about evangelical Christianity. Vought is making a theological, not a political point in that article. He is not arguing for job discrimination against Christian heretics society-wide, just at a specific religious institution. I don't know, as a general principle it seems pretty reasonable that if the pastor of the local First Baptist church converts to Judaism that he can be fired. I also think supporting principles of religious freedom when they are being applied to the majority religion is one of the best ways of protecting them for when they are applied to minority ones.

EDIT: Heretic is probably too strong, but meh, too complicated.

Last edited by Original Position; 06-11-2017 at 04:12 PM. Reason: clarity
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Old 06-11-2017, 03:55 PM   #60
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Re: Bernie Sanders vs the Religious Christian

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But we are talking about approving a person for an important management position in government (public service).
I think the point is the same though. It is preferable in a pluralistic democracy to focus on rules that constrain how people are allowed to act as government officials, rather than rules which constrain what they may believe. Obviously beliefs inform actions, but it's still better (pragmatically) to disqualify on the basis of action, not belief, because the alternative (both for private employers and for government) is almost necessarily prejudicial.
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Old 06-11-2017, 03:55 PM   #61
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Re: Bernie Sanders vs the Religious Christian

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wat

zealots don't compartmentalize. what's wrong is to hire someone who has openly expressed faith in a system that is discriminatory and there is every reason to know they will practice that discrimination in their position, because herp derp religious freedom
Yeah, herp derp basic human rights. How silly we're all being that we care about that.
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Old 06-11-2017, 04:05 PM   #62
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Re: Bernie Sanders vs the Religious Christian

Of course the real problem here is that anti discrimination laws should really only apply to people who are in categories that they are not free to (easily) change.
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Old 06-11-2017, 04:14 PM   #63
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Re: Bernie Sanders vs the Religious Christian

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Originally Posted by David Sklansky View Post
Of course the real problem here is that anti discrimination laws should really only apply to people who are in categories that they are not free to change.
evidently there's an argument to be made (and i'd bet neil gorsuch believes it) that being a divisive ******* is constitutionally protected IF you claim it's your religion*

*christians only
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Old 06-11-2017, 04:18 PM   #64
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Re: Bernie Sanders vs the Religious Christian

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Of course the real problem here is that anti discrimination laws should really only apply to people who are in categories that they are not free to change.
Is it your view that religion is one of these? Like, I genuinely believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God who died for my sins and that by having faith in God he'll save my eternal soul, but I can't work at the local bank unless I convert to Zoroastrianism, so I guess that is just my choice?
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Old 06-11-2017, 04:27 PM   #65
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Re: Bernie Sanders vs the Religious Christian

I feel that by writing an article supporting a private christian-based college's decision to fire a professor who supported Muslims ("they worship the same God"), Vought has demonstrated that he may well hold and act upon discriminatory views against people of other religions. In this case words are actions.
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Old 06-11-2017, 04:32 PM   #66
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Re: Bernie Sanders vs the Religious Christian

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Is it your view that religion is one of these? Like, I genuinely believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God who died for my sins and that by having faith in God he'll save my eternal soul, but I can't work at the local bank unless I convert to Zoroastrianism, so I guess that is just my choice?
I think that individuals should be legally allowed to take your opinions about things into account before hiring you. There shouldn't be a law against it. Suppose for instance you proclaimed that 217 was bad luck?
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Old 06-11-2017, 04:55 PM   #67
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Re: Bernie Sanders vs the Religious Christian

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I feel that by writing an article supporting a private christian-based college's decision to fire a professor who supported Muslims ("they worship the same God"), Vought has demonstrated that he may well hold and act upon discriminatory views against people of other religions. In this case words are actions.
Look, this just doesn't work. You yourself just literally wrote a forum post supporting the decision to not hire a Christian for his religious views. You claim this is because his religious views are relevant to the job, because they might cause him to be a biased manager. But what is your evidence for this?

Almost exactly the same thing you're doing right now, citing that he wrote an article supporting the decision to fire a Christian for her religious views. And since she was actually teaching at a Christian university with explicit requirements that faculty members are supposed to have those views, his case that those religious views are relevant to the job is much stronger than yours.
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Old 06-11-2017, 05:06 PM   #68
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Re: Bernie Sanders vs the Religious Christian

I'm not sure the part about Christians getting a ticket to heaven by being good boys and girls is accurate. I thought the Lord's blessing is granted to the spiritual minority not the moral majority?
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Old 06-11-2017, 07:44 PM   #69
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Re: Bernie Sanders vs the Religious Christian

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I think that individuals should be legally allowed to take your opinions about things into account before hiring you. There shouldn't be a law against it. Suppose for instance you proclaimed that 217 was bad luck?
First, this doesn't answer my question.

Second, there is no law saying you can't take people's opinions about things into account. Rather, it says no religious discrimination, which overlaps, but is not the same thing. For instance, I don't think your example would be covered as it is not a religious belief.

Third, I think this is one of those cases where total freedom in the system is increased by restricting a local freedom. If bosses were allowed to discriminate on the basis of religion, this would create a social environment with greater pressure for religious conformity and segregation, thus increasing the cost of religious independence or dissent. My guess is this would be a greater loss of freedom than losing the ability to discriminate on religious grounds in employment decisions. Religious and occupation choices at the margins have a greater impact on people than the marginal difference of not hiring someone of an unwanted religion has on the employer.
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Old 06-12-2017, 12:40 AM   #70
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Re: Bernie Sanders vs the Religious Christian

Putting the Bernie and politics things aside, it's tilting to read through a thread on Christianity where the doctrinal takes aren't even close to accurate. GBV with the only good posts before I gave up and skipped to the end.

What Bernie did was fine. Freedom of religion does not extend to using one's religious beliefs to infringe on the liberties of others. If the man had never made prejudiced remarks towards an entire group of people based on their own religious beliefs, then Bernie's line of questioning would have been out of bounds. But that's not what happened. The man made public remarks that could be construed as relevant, and Bernie had every right to challenge him and let the public watch the man admit how much of a scumbag he apparently is.
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Old 06-12-2017, 02:11 AM   #71
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Re: Bernie Sanders vs the Religious Christian

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Putting the Bernie and politics things aside, it's tilting to read through a thread on Christianity where the doctrinal takes aren't even close to accurate. GBV with the only good posts before I gave up and skipped to the end.

What Bernie did was fine. Freedom of religion does not extend to using one's religious beliefs to infringe on the liberties of others. If the man had never made prejudiced remarks towards an entire group of people based on their own religious beliefs, then Bernie's line of questioning would have been out of bounds. But that's not what happened. The man made public remarks that could be construed as relevant, and Bernie had every right to challenge him and let the public watch the man admit how much of a scumbag he apparently is.
You can't consistently claim to support freedom of religion while at the same time banning large numbers of the actual religious people you live with from holding public office because of their religious beliefs. Vought was expressing a belief in Christian exclusivism, the idea that in order to be saved you must go through Jesus, i.e. be a Christian. This is a common belief among American Christians (eg this survey says that 24% of Americans say God doesn't accept the worship of all religions).

I also reject your premise. I don't think it prejudiced to believe that without Jesus Christ everyone is condemned to hell. It might be the case that many prejudiced people hold that view and find it a convenient outlet for their prejudice. But many others who hold this view believe that such prejudice is itself a betrayal of the teachings of Jesus.
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Old 06-12-2017, 04:23 AM   #72
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Re: Bernie Sanders vs the Religious Christian

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You spoke out against it. On the same Internet you criticized, ironically. And your statement consisted of a couple of sentences, directed towards ultra-left leaning, non-religious people, so I doubt they had much impact.

My knowledge of Christianity in practice comes from many sources, including plenty of real life interaction. Granted, many are open-minded, progressive people, and many others don't put all that much thought into social and cultural issues, but make no mistake: there are plenty of horrible ones. It's not just some infinitesimal number of far-right nuts.
I didn't criticize the internet I criticized your use of it, presumably exclusively to amplify your own prejudices.

Essentially what you are doing is looking at the fringes and judging the entirety of Christianity on that basis. Which you could do anything-when did you last apologize on behalf of atheists for Mao and Stalin?
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Old 06-14-2017, 09:11 PM   #73
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Re: Bernie Sanders vs the Religious Christian

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I agree with Bernie in that I too am sick of religious extremists in government.
*Sound of champagne glasses clinking*

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If you ran a company, would you make a rule that religious exclusivists can't work for you?
What is a "religious exclusivist?" (Later on I think you get around to saying that it's someone who believes people who aren't members of their faith are damned? If so, then sure, a religious exclusivist could work for my company. My company is a Chick-Fil-A franchise, thanks for asking.)

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But we are talking about approving a person for an important management position in government (public service).
Yes. Sanders' question is valid insofar as it goes to this person's ability to uphold his duty to uphold others' constitutional right to the free exercise of their religion. I think it's easy to see why a dogmatic extremist reasonably might be considered to pose a greater risk of failing to uphold duties of office. The statement Sanders reads is fairly clear in the view it describes.

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Of course the real problem here is that anti discrimination laws should really only apply to people who are in categories that they are not free to (easily) change.
This is an absurd conclusion to draw here. Moreover, virtually no identity category is totally immutable, e.g. transgenderism.

Last edited by DrModern; 06-14-2017 at 09:20 PM.
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Old 06-14-2017, 10:56 PM   #74
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Re: Bernie Sanders vs the Religious Christian

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Originally Posted by David Sklansky View Post
Of course the real problem here is that anti discrimination laws should really only apply to people who are in categories that they are not free to (easily) change.
Is the implication here that religious faith is easy to change? Seems like a dubious proposition.
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Old 06-15-2017, 04:04 AM   #75
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Re: Bernie Sanders vs the Religious Christian

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What is a "religious exclusivist?" (Later on I think you get around to saying that it's someone who believes people who aren't members of their faith are damned? If so, then sure, a religious exclusivist could work for my company. My company is a Chick-Fil-A franchise, thanks for asking.)
More or less. A religious exclusivist is someone who believed that their religion is the only path to god, salvation, enlightenment, whatever.

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Yes. Sanders' question is valid insofar as it goes to this person's ability to uphold his duty to uphold others' constitutional right to the free exercise of their religion. I think it's easy to see why a dogmatic extremist reasonably might be considered to pose a greater risk of failing to uphold duties of office. The statement Sanders reads is fairly clear in the view it describes.
Sure, I think it is completely fair for Sanders to question Vought on his commitment to treat other people fairly and uphold people's rights to freedom of religion. What is not fair is to reject Vought after he assures Sanders that he will do so merely on the basis of Vought's religious beliefs. That is using a religious test for public office.

Here is more context for Vought's statement:

Quote:
Vought:
In other words, Dr. Hawkins is saying that she does not mean to comment on how an individual becomes saved by God, but rather the validity of their faith. But such a distinction leads to serious theological confusion because of what it means to be in relationship with or know the one, true God. For instance, she quotes extensively Dr. John Stackhouse:

"If we insist, as many are insisting in this furore, that God must be understood in terms of the Trinity, with a focus especially on Jesus, or else one really doesn’t know God, I respectfully want to ask such Bible believers what they make of Abraham (who is held up as paradigms of faith in the New Testament) and the list of Old Testament saints (who are held up as paradigms of faith to Christians in Hebrews 11), precisely none of whom can be seriously understood as holding trinitarian views and some proleptic vision of the identity and career of Jesus Christ." (bold added)

Stackhouse implies that someone could really “know God” without a focus on Jesus. He explains, “Having a deficient (e.g., nontrinitarian) theology of God…does not mean you are not in actual prayerful and faithful relationship with God. (Having wrong ideas about a person…doesn’t mean that you do not have a relationship with that person.)” This is the fundamental problem. Muslims do not simply have a deficient theology. They do not know God because they have rejected Jesus Christ his Son, and they stand condemned. In John 8:19, “Jesus answered, ‘You know neither me nor my Father. If you knew me, you would know my Father also.” In Luke 10:16, Jesus says, “The one who rejects me rejects him who sent me.” And in John 3:18, Jesus says, “Whoever believes in [the Son] is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.”
Here Vought is making an argument about the nature of God and salvation. The reference to Muslims having a "deficient theology" is a reference to Stackhouse's claim that some people have a deficient (i.e. nontrinitarian) theology. But his main point in the quoted passage is that the reason Muslims aren't saved (i.e. condemned) is because they don't know Jesus Christ, and knowing Jesus is a requirement of salvation. If you agree with me about what Vought is saying, what exactly about this view do you find so worrying that you don't think public officials should hold it?
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