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Old 03-12-2017, 01:22 AM   #76
AllCowsEatGrass
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Re: The Art of Computer Programming

I meant it in a "holy **** I would hate that job" kind of way!


Last edited by AllCowsEatGrass; 03-12-2017 at 01:22 AM. Reason: <----- suck ass at math and live in total rage when I have to do lots of it
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Old 03-12-2017, 01:27 AM   #77
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Re: The Art of Computer Programming

I have an IT degree, in InfoSec. I'm currently studying music in university however, because it's always been my greatest passion.

I'm very weary about working for some corporation, tasked with protecting their data or networks. I ****ing hate corporations, why should I give a **** if they are owned?
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Old 03-12-2017, 01:29 AM   #78
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Re: The Art of Computer Programming

Still waiting for somebody to present some code and defend its artistic merits (appreciate goofy's contribution, but lol not art).
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Old 03-12-2017, 01:31 AM   #79
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Re: The Art of Computer Programming

I think it's art, pretty neat art at that :boots:

I haven't tired to compile and run it though. **** if I know what it does! What's it do goofy?

Last edited by AllCowsEatGrass; 03-12-2017 at 01:35 AM. Reason: I'll have a sad if it's not able to compile :(
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Old 03-12-2017, 01:38 AM   #80
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Re: The Art of Computer Programming

What are its artistic merits?
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Old 03-12-2017, 01:39 AM   #81
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Re: The Art of Computer Programming

I think it's beautiful
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Old 03-12-2017, 01:43 AM   #82
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Re: The Art of Computer Programming

I think summer evening lighting storms are beautiful. They're not art.
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Old 03-12-2017, 01:55 AM   #83
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Re: The Art of Computer Programming

If you painted them they would be!
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Old 03-12-2017, 01:56 AM   #84
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Re: The Art of Computer Programming

Do you think the dust bowl is art? I don't. I wrote a song about the dust bowl however, and that is art.
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Old 03-12-2017, 02:00 AM   #85
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Re: The Art of Computer Programming

Quote:
Originally Posted by zikzak View Post
Still waiting for somebody to present some code and defend its artistic merits (appreciate goofy's contribution, but lol not art).
Do you think math is art?
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Old 03-12-2017, 02:01 AM   #86
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Re: The Art of Computer Programming

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Old 03-12-2017, 02:16 AM   #87
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Re: The Art of Computer Programming

Quote:
Originally Posted by ecriture d'adulte View Post
Do you think math is art?
I do. But maybe that is just because I am not exceptionally knowledgable about math.
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Old 03-12-2017, 03:49 AM   #88
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Re: The Art of Computer Programming

Quote:
Mathematics, rightly viewed, possesses not only truth, but supreme beauty — a beauty cold and austere, like that of sculpture, without appeal to any part of our weaker nature, without the gorgeous trappings of painting or music, yet sublimely pure, and capable of a stern perfection such as only the greatest art can show. The true spirit of delight, the exaltation, the sense of being more than Man, which is the touchstone of the highest excellence, is to be found in mathematics as surely as poetry.
- Bertrand Russell

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematical_beauty

Same with programming of course
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Old 03-12-2017, 05:09 AM   #89
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Re: The Art of Computer Programming

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Jalfrezi - seems like your idea of an artist is something like the (or a) necessary person involved in the creation of a specific piece of art. So the composer is an artist because it seems incoherent to imagine different people composing the same piece of music or different groups writing and directing the same film. However the player or actor isn't an artist because clearly different people can play or dance that piece of art. Is that fair?
I think this is interesting. Uniqueness wasn't explicitly the angle I come at it from but it is a consequence of Burgess's view that an artist is a creative person who seeks to explore the relationship between man and the external world: this implies uniqueness in the art.

There's also the problem that no two musicians will ever play the same piece identically, but to me that doesn't qualify them as artists.

(I'm glad you've focussed on the artist rather than the art form, because art is defined as anything an artist says is art. I know that's a somewhat annoying circular reference but it's one I've heard many times over the years from people with much greater experience of and involvement with the arts than me, and importantly it defends/supports the type of conceptual art that the popular reaction to is often "That's not art, I could do that").


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It seems a decent enough distinction if you think our differentiation of artworks is mostly sensitive to the qualities that make them art and not something else, perhaps more commercial considerations to do with copyright for example. Jazz would certainly be interesting, just because I imagine there'd be dissent even amongst jazz fans as to whether different versions of very widely interpreted standards were, in fact, the 'same song' in the artistically relevant sense. Improvisation would, I take it, be just instant composition.
This is one of the edge cases I mentioned earlier - apart from the jazz musicians who were clearly composers and therefore artists, I think that improvisational musicians should also be regarded as artists because there's enough of the musicians themselves in the performance to warrant it, even if the original was written by another person.



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Reminds me of a position that always confused but challenged me that photography can never actually be art, because it's a causally determined presentation of reality. The reality the photograph chooses to present might be art, but not the photographic aspect as there's no interpretive choice. It's certainly not the same view, and it seems wrong that photography doesn't involve interpretation, but it appears to aim at the same distinction between the specifically artistic move and other acts surrounding it which merely allow the artwork to be experienced by some people at some specific time.

My instinct would be that it's difficult to maintain these sorts of boundaries and thus continue to stably distinguish artists from artisans, but being a fuzzy concept doesn't mean it isn't the one we have.
This is the problem with focussing on the medium rather than the person. Is photography art? If at one extreme it's taken by an artist, yes. If at the other it's taken by a commercial photographer for an advertisement, or is a non artist taking holidays snaps then probably not. People get hung up on the idea that if it looks nice it's art and if it doesn't it isn't. Art is about intention.

I agree about the boundaries - there aren't hard lines separating artists from artisans but it's the best we can do.

Last edited by jalfrezi; 03-12-2017 at 05:17 AM.
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Old 03-12-2017, 05:13 AM   #90
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Re: March LC Thread

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Originally Posted by ecriture d'adulte View Post
Yeah, I'm not a programmer and completely disagree. My job is coming up with math that is eventually turned into code by other people. The worst part of my job is seeing some crappy subroutine that I wrote in the algorithm design phase thats copied from python into C and used a thousand times in live code. Like I only wrote it like that because I didn't have time to write it properly. There is only a handful of coders I'll give subroutines anymore and they are the people who will bother to learn what the program is meant to do and not just copy it over as a black box. And alot of these guys have Phds in CS from MIT, Harvard etc. Its definitely an art.
Nothing you've written here qualifies programming as art (I'm a programmer myself).
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Old 03-12-2017, 05:16 AM   #91
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Re: The Art of Computer Programming

Quote:
Originally Posted by chezlaw View Post
- Bertrand Russell

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematical_beauty

Same with programming of course
Maths has great beauty, but does that make it Art?
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Old 03-12-2017, 06:59 AM   #92
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Re: The Art of Computer Programming

We could argue that everything is discovered rather than created and so nothing is art however beautiful. Or we could recognise some mathematics as the beautiful creation of artistic geniuses just as with the composers of great music.
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Old 03-12-2017, 07:26 AM   #93
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Re: The Art of Computer Programming

As someone said earlier I think there's just a clear difference in the word 'art' between sentences like "X is an art" and "X is art". Programming seems to trivially fit the first, but code rarely fits the second, and it's the second kind of thing we usually look for to say that the people who do such-and-such a thing are artists.

As for examples of code as art then musicians who write code that directly produces sound, which they don't then further process would seem a fairly clear case. I believe that occurs (some of Autechre's albums fit that description, I think), but I'm not knowledgeable enough about the methods to know for sure.

Visual art that responds to sounds or movements in a space, to then project or display something is, I presume, often done using code. It would seem the code is, at least in part, the constitutive element, rather than whatever's being displayed at some particular time.
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Old 03-12-2017, 09:21 AM   #94
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Re: The Art of Computer Programming

Quote:
Originally Posted by ecriture d'adulte View Post
Do you think math is art?
Of course not.

No, fractals aren't art.

No, computer generated music/pictures/whatever aren't art.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chezlaw View Post
Quote:
Mathematics, rightly viewed, possesses not only truth, but supreme beauty — a beauty cold and austere, like that of sculpture, without appeal to any part of our weaker nature, without the gorgeous trappings of painting or music, yet sublimely pure, and capable of a stern perfection such as only the greatest art can show. The true spirit of delight, the exaltation, the sense of being more than Man, which is the touchstone of the highest excellence, is to be found in mathematics as surely as poetry.
- Bertrand Russell

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematical_beauty

Same with programming of course
The bold is a key reason why math is NOT art. It does not speak to the human condition, nor is it informed by it. That's a really dumb quote. It's like saying the reference section of the library has the best literature. It's asinine.
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Old 03-12-2017, 10:23 AM   #95
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Re: The Art of Computer Programming

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We could argue that everything is discovered rather than created and so nothing is art however beautiful. Or we could recognise some mathematics as the beautiful creation of artistic geniuses just as with the composers of great music.
Or we could reject false dilemmas. Glacier National Park is extremely beautiful and gave rise to spiritual feelings within me, but it's clearly not art, at least not for grumpy atheists like me.

Giving rise to those feelings Russell talked about might be one criterion you could use for something being art, but to me it's not sufficient in itself.

It occurs to me there ought to be a word in English for the kind of beauty Russell is talking about, a beauty in elegance, simplicity and correctness. It's a very common shared experience which is quite different from other forms of aesthetic pleasure and yet Russell needed a paragraph to explain what he was talking about.
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Old 03-12-2017, 10:44 AM   #96
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Re: The Art of Computer Programming

"sublime"
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Old 03-12-2017, 10:45 AM   #97
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Re: The Art of Computer Programming

Quote:
Originally Posted by ecriture d'adulte View Post
Do you think math is art?
I doubt there are any more people in this thread qualified to say if math is art than there are to say code is art, probably less.
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Old 03-12-2017, 12:06 PM   #98
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Re: The Art of Computer Programming

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Or we could reject false dilemmas. Glacier National Park is extremely beautiful and gave rise to spiritual feelings within me, but it's clearly not art, at least not for grumpy atheists like me.

Giving rise to those feelings Russell talked about might be one criterion you could use for something being art, but to me it's not sufficient in itself.

It occurs to me there ought to be a word in English for the kind of beauty Russell is talking about, a beauty in elegance, simplicity and correctness. It's a very common shared experience which is quite different from other forms of aesthetic pleasure and yet Russell needed a paragraph to explain what he was talking about.
It would be art if it was the work of man. Which comes back to whether works of man that produce products of great beauty are creative acts or acts of discovery. That's not a false dilemma as much as a fake dilemma because it doesn't really make any difference does it?
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Old 03-12-2017, 12:44 PM   #99
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Re: The Art of Computer Programming

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It would be art if it was the work of man.
Only if it was the work of an artist. Otherwise it would probably count as a feat of engineering.

We are too fixated on the object rather than the intention.
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Old 03-12-2017, 12:44 PM   #100
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Re: The Art of Computer Programming

The Atlantic appears to be trying to troll this thread...

Last edited by well named; 03-12-2017 at 12:46 PM. Reason: I may not know a lot about art, but I know what I like -- Donald Knuth
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