Two Plus Two Publishing LLC Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

Politics political discourse

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 04-07-2017, 01:54 PM   #176
microbet
Solar Powered
 
microbet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: 69.20.56.132
Posts: 41,311
Re: America Going to War with Syria!

Quote:
Originally Posted by champstark View Post
No plausible alternative has been put forth. Suggesting the US military dropped sarin gas on Syrian children is not plausible.
I get that we are opposed to the spread of gas attacks, but you're not suggesting that the US Military is reluctant to kill children are you? We just killed 300 people in a hospital in Mosul. In previous hospital bombings we have admitted that the hospital was the target despite known civilian presence because ISIS fighters were thought to be there.

And lots of other like Madeline Albright saying the deaths of 500 000 children in Iraq was worth it.
microbet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2017, 01:55 PM   #177
cuserounder
Pooh-Bah
 
cuserounder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: East Coast
Posts: 4,954
Re: America Going to War with Syria!

It's important to remember that if Trump did want to use military action to boost his approval numbers and impact the news cycle, he could have just significantly ramped up strikes on ISIS. He didn't need a conspiracy, he had an option all along.
cuserounder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2017, 01:59 PM   #178
Habsfan09
adept
 
Habsfan09's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: wrong side of variance
Posts: 1,011
Re: America Going to War with Syria!

An alternative could be that the Syrian rebels became desperate after Trump said he could live with Assad in power. They created the event to shift opinion.
But there is no proof that they had access to this kind of weapons.

So basically we have Assad who actually had no reason to do something like that which would hurt him after Trump said he could change how the US wanted to go forward with Syria. But he had access to the weapons.
And you have the Anti-Assad troops who were forced back and needed help desperatly but for all we know they had no access to these kind of weapons.
Or it wasn't Assad who ordered it. Just some local Syrian army commander who had an alternative motive.
Habsfan09 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2017, 02:02 PM   #179
seattlelou
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
seattlelou's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: 6'20" and killing for fun.
Posts: 31,604
Re: America Going to War with Syria!

Quote:
Originally Posted by theballer84 View Post
That's hardly the extent of my argument.

I'm saying:

1) We have done similar things before.
2) There is plenty of reason to want to frame this guy.

Neither of these things mean I think he is innocent, it means I would just like to see a proper debate before doing something that could potentially start World War III.

Take it to Congress. Take it to the U.N. Something.
My read on WWII is that inaction leads to world wars. We could have accidently killed a few Russians changing nothing. Sanctioning Putin's buddies has greater potential to lead to a broader conflict.
seattlelou is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2017, 02:03 PM   #180
champstark
aka starkwired
 
champstark's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 12,488
Re: America Going to War with Syria!

Quote:
Originally Posted by microbet View Post
I get that we are opposed to the spread of gas attacks, but you're not suggesting that the US Military is reluctant to kill children are you?
not at all
champstark is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2017, 02:03 PM   #181
th14
adept
 
th14's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,181
Re: America Going to War with Syria!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Habsfan09 View Post
Assad who actually had no reason to do something like that
NYT: The Grim Logic Behind Syria’s Chemical Weapons Attack

tldr: dictator Assad uses brutal force against opposition because they are opposition.
th14 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2017, 02:05 PM   #182
watevs
Pooh-Bah
 
watevs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: watching my tammates get bussed
Posts: 3,943
Re: America Going to War with Syria!

I'm just pretty surprised to see so many people full swallowing official explanations when this has been an issue for what, 3 days?

I'm old enough to remember the justifications for war in Iraq

I think the 'conspiracy theory' bashing is way off base with the condescension given how little info we really have on the other side and given the trustworthiness of those in power
watevs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2017, 02:07 PM   #183
MrWookie
Don't Call Me Shirley
 
MrWookie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Treating my drinking problem.
Posts: 83,579
Re: America Going to War with Syria!

Quote:
Originally Posted by watevs View Post
I'm just pretty surprised to see so many people full swallowing official explanations when this has been an issue for what, 3 days?

I'm old enough to remember the justifications for war in Iraq

I think the 'conspiracy theory' bashing is way off base with the condescension given how little info we really have on the other side and given the trustworthiness of those in power
Yeah, I remember Iraq, too. Whether or not Iraq had weapons of mass destruction was an open question. Are you disputing whether or not the gas attack happened at all?
MrWookie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2017, 02:07 PM   #184
microbet
Solar Powered
 
microbet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: 69.20.56.132
Posts: 41,311
Re: America Going to War with Syria!

Assad had the same reason dictators always hand. Keep people in line.
microbet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2017, 02:17 PM   #185
watevs
Pooh-Bah
 
watevs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: watching my tammates get bussed
Posts: 3,943
Re: America Going to War with Syria!

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrWookie View Post
Yeah, I remember Iraq, too. Whether or not Iraq had weapons of mass destruction was an open question. Are you disputing whether or not the gas attack happened at all?
No I am not questioning whether the attack happened. My point is that we have been lied to countless times regarding foreign wars and other actions.

Now, we are dealing with the most untrustworthy administration of all time. The previous administration, while more trustworthy, wasn't exactly all peace and love when it came to foreign policy.

I don't see why they shouldn't be questioned, and I think we should take all possible steps to avoid more war.
watevs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2017, 02:21 PM   #186
David Sklansky
Administrator
 
David Sklansky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 13,544
Re: America Going to War with Syria!

As long as our strike was a one time thing that doesn't escalate, it barely matters who dropped the chemicals on the kids (unless it was actually done by us). The strike probably made it less likely for anybody to do it again.
David Sklansky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2017, 02:22 PM   #187
theballer84
grinder
 
theballer84's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 686
Re: America Going to War with Syria!

Quote:
Originally Posted by sportsjefe View Post
This definitely helps with the line of thought that it was an attempt to distract from their treasonous behavior, which for the record, I do think is the most likely explanation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cuserounder View Post
It's important to remember that if Trump did want to use military action to boost his approval numbers and impact the news cycle, he could have just significantly ramped up strikes on ISIS. He didn't need a conspiracy, he had an option all along.
ISIS is old news. Most people are probably immune to caring about ISIS at this point. I sure as hell am not scared of ISIS, they are no real threat to the United States. Trump's numbers are flailing badly at this point, he definitely needs something more jarring to cause people to rally around the flag.

Quote:
Originally Posted by watevs View Post
seems pretty reasonable to me. I don't really understand why mostly reasonable people ITT seem to have 100% confidence in official explanations to the point of this condescension
Thank you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrWookie View Post
OK, a "proper debate" about how and why a particular series of events happened requires

1. Competing coherent explanations (you are here).
2. Evidence in support of said explanations (you have shown none).
Thank you for acknowledging #1, we're working on #2 right now, **** just happened last night.

Quote:
Originally Posted by seattlelou View Post
My read on WWII is that inaction leads to world wars. We could have accidently killed a few Russians changing nothing. Sanctioning Putin's buddies has greater potential to lead to a broader conflict.
Inaction may lead to war but eventually unilateral actions like this will definitely lead to war.


Quote:
Originally Posted by watevs View Post
I'm just pretty surprised to see so many people full swallowing official explanations when this has been an issue for what, 3 days?

I'm old enough to remember the justifications for war in Iraq

I think the 'conspiracy theory' bashing is way off base with the condescension given how little info we really have on the other side and given the trustworthiness of those in power
Thank you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrWookie View Post
Yeah, I remember Iraq, too. Whether or not Iraq had weapons of mass destruction was an open question. Are you disputing whether or not the gas attack happened at all?
C'mon, no one is disputing that it happened, why go there? That's a strawman.
theballer84 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2017, 02:25 PM   #188
pyatnitski
centurion
 
pyatnitski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 146
Re: America Going to War with Syria!

Is acknowledging the Syrian regime is by far the most likely candidate to have dropped the bomb, whilst not supporting Trump's airstrikes really such a hard position to stake out?
pyatnitski is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2017, 02:30 PM   #189
iron81
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
iron81's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Resident Spork
Posts: 16,379
Re: America Going to War with Syria!

At one point, the Russians were alleging Assad bombed a rebel sarin stockpile.
iron81 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2017, 02:30 PM   #190
microbet
Solar Powered
 
microbet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: 69.20.56.132
Posts: 41,311
Re: America Going to War with Syria!

Quote:
Originally Posted by seattlelou View Post
My read on WWII is that inaction leads to world wars. We could have accidently killed a few Russians changing nothing. Sanctioning Putin's buddies has greater potential to lead to a broader conflict.
WW2 is so so so much less relevant than Iraq. Germany had aspirations to invade Eastern Europe from the very beginning. Invading armies can be stopped. An outside power settling a civil war is completely different and this certainly looks like one we can't settle, at least not through the massive bombardment that you're looking for.
microbet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2017, 02:32 PM   #191
andre006
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
andre006's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: dab
Posts: 8,592
Re: America Going to War with Syria!

Glen greenwald posted this, was a good watch

andre006 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2017, 02:32 PM   #192
Huehuecoyotl
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Huehuecoyotl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: It's hard to get by on a smile
Posts: 22,011
Re: America Going to War with Syria!

Quote:
Originally Posted by watevs View Post
No I am not questioning whether the attack happened. My point is that we have been lied to countless times regarding foreign wars and other actions.

Now, we are dealing with the most untrustworthy administration of all time. The previous administration, while more trustworthy, wasn't exactly all peace and love when it came to foreign policy.

I don't see why they shouldn't be questioned, and I think we should take all possible steps to avoid more war.
Sure but the problem is it's not the administration that's telling us that Sarin gas was used. It's various entities in Syria who report it, then the administration hears it. This isn't the 50's were all information comes through the government and we're not relying on anonymous CIA reports or anything like that. Whether we should go to war is a different story.
Huehuecoyotl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2017, 02:33 PM   #193
theballer84
grinder
 
theballer84's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 686
Re: America Going to War with Syria!

Quote:
Originally Posted by iron81 View Post
At one point, the Russians were alleging Assad bombed a rebel sarin stockpile.
That's still their assertion, I believe.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-39529264

(Not saying I believe it is true - I still think it is too early to tell the truth.)
theballer84 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2017, 02:36 PM   #194
Huehuecoyotl
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Huehuecoyotl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: It's hard to get by on a smile
Posts: 22,011
Re: America Going to War with Syria!

Quote:
Originally Posted by theballer84 View Post
That's still their assertion, I believe.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-39529264

(Not saying I believe it is true - I still think it is too early to tell the truth.)
A Guardian reporter went to the site of the bombing and didn't find any evidence of any kind of chemical factory. You could say maybe they cleaned it up, but it'd be really hard to clean up and move all that contaminated equipment without a lot of fanfare. It's much more likely that the bombs themselves were chemical bombs.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...hemical-attack

This isn't the first time the Syrian army has used gas.

Last edited by Huehuecoyotl; 04-07-2017 at 02:49 PM.
Huehuecoyotl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2017, 02:37 PM   #195
einbert
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
einbert's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: makecalls.democrats.org
Posts: 14,353
Re: America Going to War with Syria!

I guess it's not an impeachable offense when Republicans do it.

einbert is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2017, 02:52 PM   #196
David Sklansky
Administrator
 
David Sklansky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 13,544
Re: America Going to War with Syria!

Among the conspiracy theories, the most likely, given the present Russian probe, is that Russia orchestrated this thing and is now feigning anger. Mr Bayes need to be invoked when there is such a perfectly timed event that gives our president such an obvious opportunity to appear to go against Russia without actually hurting them in the slightest
David Sklansky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2017, 02:55 PM   #197
otatop
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
otatop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 10,473
Re: America Going to War with Syria!

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Sklansky View Post
Among the conspiracy theories, the most likely, given the present Russian probe, is that Russia orchestrated this thing and is now feigning anger. Mr Bayes need to be invoked when there is such a perfectly timed event that gives our president such an obvious opportunity to appear to go against Russia without actually hurting them in the slightest
The idea I saw floating around Reddit was this strike was to initiate a fake stand off between the US and Russia, have a quick little proxy war blowing up parts of Syria, then the two sides will come to terms on a peace deal where Russia's sanctions get lifted and Trump can walk away with a victory as a master peace negotiator.
otatop is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2017, 03:03 PM   #198
FlyWf
It's the other way
 
FlyWf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: [ ] REGARD FOR HUMAN LIFE
Posts: 53,574
Re: America Going to War with Syria!

Quote:
Originally Posted by theballer84 View Post
So you call me an imbecile and insane because I don't take our governments stance at face value?

Gulf of Tonkin? Anyone?
The Gulf of Tonkin did not involve the US committing a war crime against ****ing civilians.

You can't even do conspirtarding right, you're supposed to namecheck Operation Northwoods here

Quote:
C'mon, no one is disputing that it happened, why go there? That's a strawman.
"It didn't happen, it was crisis actors and disinfo" is like a million times more plausible than "The CIA planted people in the Syrian Air Force to launch chemical strikes on rebels against Assad's wishes, and then somehow blackmail Assad into not revealing that"
FlyWf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2017, 03:05 PM   #199
FlyWf
It's the other way
 
FlyWf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: [ ] REGARD FOR HUMAN LIFE
Posts: 53,574
Re: America Going to War with Syria!

Quote:
Originally Posted by pyatnitski View Post
Is acknowledging the Syrian regime is by far the most likely candidate to have dropped the bomb, whilst not supporting Trump's airstrikes really such a hard position to stake out?
This.

I mean, it's pretty ****ing simple.
FlyWf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2017, 03:24 PM   #200
einbert
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
einbert's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: makecalls.democrats.org
Posts: 14,353
Re: America Going to War with Syria!

Welp

einbert is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:52 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Optimisation provided by DragonByte SEO v2.0.33 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2017 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright © 2008-2010, Two Plus Two Interactive
 
 
Poker Players - Streaming Live Online