1984 Discussion thread

[tomdemaine]

As the title states this is the discussion thread for our little book group. Anyone is welcome but substantive posts are encouraged and "lol socialism" type posts are discouraged. As far as I'm concerned letting the book be a jumping off point for a more general political discussion is fine but if people prefer we stick more strictly to the text we can make that happen. From now until next Saturday we'll be discussing chapters 1 & 2 then two more every Saturday unless we find the pace too quick or too slow. If you have any ideas to change how this works I'd rather you PM me than clutter the thread but I am very open to suggestions.

I'll post my thoughts shortly but I'm leaving this post so that hopefully a friendly mod can edit it later to include links to the start point of future chapters.

Edit : Also re: spoilers, Obviously it's a 60 year old book but there are some people reading it for the first time itt I think. If a spoiler is vital to argument fine if not try making it without the spoiler.

[JayTeeMe]

in

Would post more but going out to the bar

[tomdemaine]

I think it's pretty clear from these chapters that Orwell is not just a political writer. He is also an excellent world builder too. You can taste the grit and smell the cabbage. It's a very dingy olden days british school type feel to it. Not horrific just eternally uncomfortable.

Straight away you get a distinction between the proles and the Party at the cinema. The only humanity comes from someone considered beneath contempt by the establishment.

Winston is already flipping between hated and love belief and disbelief at this point (the 2 minute hate) but is unable to achieve the true doublethink goal of being able to hold contradictory beliefs as true at the same time. The only crime in Oceania is maintaining that objective reality exists, all other crimes flow from that.

For me the scene with the children is worst of all. A parent living in constant fear of their own child is a terrible image. "Give me a child until he is seven and I will give you the man" say the Jesuits and Orwell seems to agree.

[DblBarrelJ]

Winston appears here to be a man struggling with his own desires to be free of an oppressive totalitarian party, struggling to hide his contempt in the face of constant scrutiny and surveillance.

Originally Posted by Winston Smith

DOWN WITH BIG BROTHER
DOWN WITH BIG BROTHER
DOWN WITH BIG BROTHER
DOWN WITH BIG BROTHER
DOWN WITH BIG BROTHER

theyll shoot me i don’t care theyll shoot me in the back of the neck i dont care down with big brother they always shoot you in the back of the neck i dont care down with big brother

The world of Oceania is a place apparently completely desensitized and often aroused by violence, as we learn from the children's disappointment at missing a public hanging and the roaring cheers from the crowd in the cinema. This, and the vulgar totalitarianism and hatred I've already developed for Big Brother as well as the Party itself, are the main points I've drawn from the first two chapters.

[tomdemaine]

Ok first discussion question

Winston writing a diary is a conspicuous defiance of the Party. If you are encased in a system with no hope of escape is it better to knuckle down, play by the rules and try to survive as long as possible or is it better to rebel even in a small way and even if that will dramatically worsen your life personally?

Is it hypocritical to "thrive" in a system you despise?

[13ball]

I think Winston's almost automatic writing is a way of showing that his society is going against the grain of human nature. It's not a matter of Winston choosing to write the diary entry--it's almost as if he has to. Something else that speaks to the reversal of human nature is the anti-sex league (sorry if that hasn't come up in chaps 1-2 I can't remember. Not exactly a spoiler, though.) Urges can be put down, repressed and punished but cannot be eliminated. Though, as we'll see, they can be exploited by those in power.

[neg3sd]

1984 was written in 1949.

If everything is Newspeak or doublespeak, why isn't two minute hate not two minute love?

[tomdemaine]

Originally Posted by neg3sd

1984 was written in 1949.

If everything is Newspeak or doublespeak, why isn't two minute hate not two minute love?

It's a more subtle thing. The idea is that it is good to hate. That spitting snarling and wishing painful death on another human being is a daily exercise like touching your toes.

[Pcallinallin]

I look forward to lurking your book club. I have too much reading AORN or I would participate.

[General Tsao]

Originally Posted by tomdemaine

Ok first discussion question

Winston writing a diary is a conspicuous defiance of the Party. If you are encased in a system with no hope of escape is it better to knuckle down, play by the rules and try to survive as long as possible or is it better to rebel even in a small way and even if that will dramatically worsen your life personally?

Is it hypocritical to "thrive" in a system you despise?

I don't think its hypocritical, it's human nature to want to do the best for yourself, as much as possible. I would either play by the rules (as I do in my own life) or GTFO - in Winston's case he has (at least according to what I've read so far) he has no loved ones, no friends, no family - he's a prime candidate for getting out.

Or finding Goldstein and joining with him.

But his little act of rebellion by itself seems an ineffective and unnecessary risk.

[General Tsao]

Originally Posted by tomdemaine

For me the scene with the children is worst of all. A parent living in constant fear of their own child is a terrible image. "Give me a child until he is seven and I will give you the man" say the Jesuits and Orwell seems to agree.

I love the description of the children has baby tigers practicing their skills for when they are adults.

[AlexM]

Yeah, no more hypocrisy than an ACist paying their taxes. It's simply survival. You might despise eating meat, but if you're starving and that's all there is, you eat the meat.

[neg3sd]

Shortages in commodities. Rationing of cigarettes. Sounds like
Russia and China.
In the early eighties the GS Warriors added their first Russian
player. Chris Mullin's wife takes the Russian player's wife
grocery shopping. The Russian woman packs her cart full
of meats. Mullin's wife asks why buy so much? Russian woman
says one never knows when the meats will be available. "This
is America, the shelves are always full."
In 1989 San Francisco had an earthquake. For about a week
half the shops were shut. I had visited Russia in '88. In Russia
everyday half the shops are shut.

[General Tsao]

i'm around chapter 6 now, i couldn't not read, sorry politards :/

it's really well written.

reading ahead sort of makes talking about the book hard because now IDK what's happened in which chapter.

[JayTeeMe]

Originally Posted by tomdemaine

Ok first discussion question

Winston writing a diary is a conspicuous defiance of the Party. If you are encased in a system with no hope of escape is it better to knuckle down, play by the rules and try to survive as long as possible or is it better to rebel even in a small way and even if that will dramatically worsen your life personally?

Is it hypocritical to "thrive" in a system you despise?

I don't think so.

An interesting thing about the diary is that there's no law against having a diary (party not restricted by laws at all). But Winston knows he'll be caught with it and punished severely. So why keep it? The diary is really the only thing Winston can express this thoughts on anything to. The conversations he has are all banal and boring. Everyone has to use their crimestop and doublethink protective stupidity to ward off being vanished. All your conversations are potentially listened in on and any sign at all of unorthodoxy is dangerous. There's essentially no connection between man and man. It's telling how an incredibly meaningful experience for Winston is a moment when he catches a fleeting unguarded look from O'Brien and has the sense that he was thinking the same thing. When I read the first couple chapters it's the shattering loneliness that strikes me.

Originally Posted by General Tsao

I love the description of the children has baby tigers practicing their skills for when they are adults.

Yes.

The children are indoctrinated to have loyalty to the party at all times. People are afraid of their children and most will be betrayed by them. The party has shattered the family, which was a huge source of political power since the dawn of time.