Open Side Menu Go to the Top
Register
MMA Thread MMA Thread

02-09-2012 , 03:11 PM
boxing is not on a downward path. stop saying that.
fwiw mma (ufc) growth have stagnated going by ppv-buys, but i hope the FOX-deal helps in that aspect.
MMA Thread Quote
02-09-2012 , 03:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kingofcool
boxing is not on a downward path. stop saying that.
fwiw mma (ufc) growth have stagnated going by ppv-buys, but i hope the FOX-deal helps in that aspect.
This is correct not a lot of whiteys watch boxing, its why the ufc went after cain and promoted the **** out of him and have spanish language broadcasts or i could totally be offbase here.

The PPV buys have to be due to the economy and having PPV cards on back to back weekends. The avg MMA fan isn't going to want to jam sixty a weekend, two to three times a month.
MMA Thread Quote
02-09-2012 , 05:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mlane
This is correct not a lot of whiteys watch boxing, its why the ufc went after cain and promoted the **** out of him and have spanish language broadcasts or i could totally be offbase here.

The PPV buys have to be due to the economy and having PPV cards on back to back weekends. The avg MMA fan isn't going to want to jam sixty a weekend, two to three times a month.
Hispanics drive the boxing economy in the us, yep.

Also even though the sport is not as big in us as it was in the 80s, its very big globally.. The klitschko brothers sell out 50k stadiums while fighting "bum of the month"
MMA Thread Quote
02-09-2012 , 07:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhatPots
I have no interest in a rematch between Condit and Diaz. I gotta say a lot of the cards lately have been lacking. Some of the headliners aren't even good enough for co-mainevents IMO
Lacking in terms of what? I certainly hope you don't mean excitement...because every card from 139 to UFC on FX delivered great action, and 143 was solid as well.

@mlane, I can't wait for the day knees to the head on the ground are allowed again. Would make certain ground positions (north-south, turtle) much more dynamic.
MMA Thread Quote
02-09-2012 , 07:28 PM
Few things;

Knees and kicks to a downed opponent aren't being allowed in the US, I hesitate to say forever, but ... forever.

During this stretch there's been numerous injury related shuffles on some main bouts (that may be the norm moving forward due to the raised stakes)

During this stretch we've also had some of the most amazing bouts ever (Shogun/Hendo, Barry/Kongo, etc anyone?)

Boxing is most definitely on a downward path. They may have bottomed out tho - a very few elite stars doesn't speak to the dearth of talent in the sport overall.

Also when it comes to over-saturation, we haven't even begun to see the next generation of talents that will grow up training MMA or at least socially aware of it.
MMA Thread Quote
02-09-2012 , 08:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DodgerIrish
Boxing is most definitely on a downward path. They may have bottomed out tho - a very few elite stars doesn't speak to the dearth of talent in the sport overall.
downward compared to what? The 70s? The 80s? Yes.
Compared to 2005? No, not really.

MMA similarly has only a few "elite stars", just like boxing. There's not really room for much more.

Boxing has very good up and coming talent. More than mma has, but that obviously is because boxing is a bigger sport with a much larger talentpool.

Not trying to put one over the other, just tired of the (often baseless) assumptions about boxing from mma-fans.
I love both sports and they can clearly co-exist and do very very well.

This is about sports betting, not general sports discussions, i guess, so whatever.


(oh and i think MMA has a lot going for them to grow over the next 50 years. It's mostly guys between 18-40 who are fans while for boxing it's 3-90. When our generation grow old the sport will be more accepted and spread somewhat even through all agegroups.. oh and imagine the talent created with more knowledge on how to practice deliberately for mma. wow)

Last edited by kingofcool; 02-09-2012 at 08:19 PM.
MMA Thread Quote
02-09-2012 , 08:33 PM
By your logic boxing should have just as big or more attention when it comes to the under-cards compared to UFC

Quote:
Originally Posted by kingofcool
Boxing has very good up and coming talent. More than mma has, but that obviously is because boxing is a bigger sport with a much larger talentpool.

oh and imagine the talent created with more knowledge on how to practice deliberately for mma. wow


And no one is saying boxing is trying to get back to their peak of 2005. Yes everyone is comparing boxing to when it, you know, was a big deal

Last edited by DodgerIrish; 02-09-2012 at 08:39 PM.
MMA Thread Quote
02-09-2012 , 08:39 PM
Knees to the head on the ground will be allowed eventually I think. It's going to take some time, and people in our generation to come to positions of importance in the MMA/commission world.
MMA Thread Quote
02-09-2012 , 08:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DodgerIrish
By your logic boxing should have just as big or more attention when it comes to the under-cards compared to UFC
This is flawed. Undercard in either sport doesn't get attention from anyone other than the dedicated hardcore fans.

It's also quite irrelevant. Undercard in ufc = ~top50 fighters. In boxing, due to the large pool of fighters, it's often a future contender vs. a bum.
What it boils down to as per the talent discussion, boxing = has a lot of great talent coming up. It's hardly a good argument to put against boxing.
MMA Thread Quote
02-09-2012 , 08:42 PM
Weed will be legal before dudes are getting soccer kicked in the face on Fox

They've been saying weed is gonna be legalized for 40 years. The UFC has no interest in appealing to the blood-lust of the minority while alienating the majority
MMA Thread Quote
02-09-2012 , 08:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kingofcool
This is flawed. Undercard in either sport doesn't get attention from anyone other than the dedicated hardcore fans.

It's also quite irrelevant. Undercard in ufc = ~top50 fighters. In boxing, due to the large pool of fighters, it's often a future contender vs. a bum.
What it boils down to as per the talent discussion, boxing = has a lot of great talent coming up. It's hardly a good argument to put against boxing.
1.3 million ppl (US only) watched the undercard on F/X last Saturday and I thought you said boxing had more talent b/c it was a bigger sport? You don't think there's a large pool of MMA fighters when you include bums?

Surely they could make a decent undercard fight w/ top 50 talent no? Bet a top 20 guy against a top 30 guys would draw a huge # in boxing ... wonder why the TV execs aren't falling over themselves to shell out big $
MMA Thread Quote
02-09-2012 , 08:43 PM
I don't mind that you can't knee someone if their knee's are on the ground if it has shown that a lot of injuries occur bc of it, but they should definitely take away that you can't have a hand on the floor because it's just silly, people who are about to get knee'ed put a hand on the floor and all of a sudden they can't be knee'ed, that's just bs.
MMA Thread Quote
02-09-2012 , 08:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DodgerIrish


And no one is saying boxing is trying to get back to their peak of 2005. Yes everyone is comparing boxing to when it, you know, was a big deal
Oh, so now we shall count the imaginary talent that could come up in mma decades from now? Unless it grows larger than boxing it will still not develop more raw talent than boxing does.

Oh alright. So i guess poker is on an upward path because it's more popular than in the 80s? If you wan't to say boxing is not growing fast or whatever then fine, probably true. It's not on some "downward path". Feel free to prove it by using statistics available.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DodgerIrish
1.3 million ppl (US only) watched the undercard on F/X last Saturday and I thought you said boxing had more talent b/c it was a bigger sport?

Surely they could make a decent undercard fight w/ top 50 talent no? Bet a top 20 guy against a top 30 guys would draw a huge # in boxing ... wonder why the TV execs aren't falling over themselves to shell out big $
They can but it's not how boxing is run.
Do you follow boxing? it doesn't seem like youre familiar with how it's been run for decades.
MMA Thread Quote
02-09-2012 , 08:47 PM
I don't have anything to back it up, but the way I see it in Sweden for example, there are almost no boxing clubs, but tons of BJJ,Thaiboxing,MMA clubs. And I think that's the way probably in USA. I also think that more and more young people are more going to start in a school that trains boxing, bjj etc combined, instead of just pursuing a pure boxing career. Though, I don't mind boxing and am not suggesting it be removed or anything, just statying the obvious.
MMA is for sure going to become the new boxing in regards to fighting. Especially since the guys behind the scenes are running the whole show so damn good.
MMA Thread Quote
02-09-2012 , 08:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kingofcool
Oh, so now we shall count the imaginary talent that could come up in mma decades from now? Unless it grows larger than boxing it will still not develop more raw talent than boxing does.

Oh alright. So i guess poker is on an upward path because it's more popular than in the 80s? If you wan't to say boxing is not growing fast or whatever then fine, probably true. It's not on some "downward path". Feel free to prove it by using statistics available.


They can but it's not how boxing is run.
Do you follow boxing? it doesn't seem like youre familiar with how it's been run for decades.
There's more young boxing talent than what wrestling and BJJ are going to produce? You're obv a boxing fanboi and data won't mean anything to you. Look at the #'s MMA prelims bring in, this is a silly argument. That shows you the real appeal of the sport as opposed to celebrity combatants

Boxing is the most corrupt, inept sport in the US and you're saying I'm not familiar w/ how it's been run for decades? I'm not a big boxing fan but it's specifically b/c of their screwed up system/organizations/corruptness
MMA Thread Quote
02-09-2012 , 08:56 PM
O and the top 20 in MMA is fluid b/c

Immensely less fixed
The nature of the sport
More comparable talent
MMA Thread Quote
02-09-2012 , 08:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Swiiftx
I don't have anything to back it up, but the way I see it in Sweden for example, there are almost no boxing clubs, but tons of BJJ,Thaiboxing,MMA clubs. And I think that's the way probably in USA. I also think that more and more young people are more going to start in a school that trains boxing, bjj etc combined, instead of just pursuing a pure boxing career. Though, I don't mind boxing and am not suggesting it be removed or anything, just statying the obvious.
MMA is for sure going to become the new boxing in regards to fighting. Especially since the guys behind the scenes are running the whole show so damn good.
Well as im sure you know boxing in sweden is nearly extinct. Mostly due to the 50+ year ban but also from complete lack of exposure in media. Valuev gets some attention because hes a freak, while pacquia gets none. Quite bizarre.
In sweden mma is orders of magnitude bigger than boxing, but thats like saying hockey isnt very popular in iraq.

I think both sports have their place and i dont expect either to run the other into obscurity.
MMA Thread Quote
02-09-2012 , 09:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kingofcool
Well as im sure you know boxing in sweden is nearly extinct. Mostly due to the 50+ year ban but also from complete lack of exposure in media. Valuev gets some attention because hes a freak, while pacquia gets none. Quite bizarre.
In sweden mma is orders of magnitude bigger than boxing, but thats like saying hockey isnt very popular in iraq.

I think both sports have their place and i dont expect either to run the other into obscurity.
Yes, I definitely don't think they are competing or anything, I'm just saying that the growth factor of MMA is larger than boxing and that it will overcome boxing in terms of # of viewers on average, if it hasn't already. I'm also talking about all events and not just the events where the klistch brothers, pacman and Floyd Mayweather Jr fights.
MMA Thread Quote
02-09-2012 , 09:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DodgerIrish
There's more young boxing talent than what wrestling and BJJ are going to produce? You're obv a boxing fanboi and data won't mean anything to you. Look at the #'s MMA prelims bring in, this is a silly argument. That shows you the real appeal of the sport as opposed to celebrity combatants

Boxing is the most corrupt, inept sport in the US and you're saying I'm not familiar w/ how it's been run for decades? I'm not a big boxing fan but it's specifically b/c of their screwed up system/organizations/corruptness
Alright, my last post on the subject for now as im sure most people in this thread is annoyed by it, and quite frankly its been done to death already.

Compare boxing with bjj/wrestling, account for money involved and the chance for a wrestler/bjj guy do switch sport into mma and i feel boxing by far has the better chance for spouting out talents.
I love boxing yes, but also mma. I watch more mma than i do boxing, and i wrestled for more than 10 years, so i dont think im overly biased.

Boxing is less corrupt today than it has ever been. Im not sure thats whats being discussed tho?
I dont see where youre coming from stating what kind of upcoming talent boxibg has if you dont follow it?
I have barely seen a game of basketball in 10 years. Am i qualified to say they lack upcoming talent?

If you can show me data that supports boxibg is going dowbwards im all for it. I love to be proven wrong at st about anything as it correct a flawed thought process within me.
If u wanna keep discussing this feel free to pm. And sorry for a million spelling errors. Im posting from a mobile device and for some reason i cant see the text...
MMA Thread Quote
02-09-2012 , 09:10 PM
I can't see the rules ever being relaxed on knees on the ground and soccer kicks.

Currently the UFC is making a lot of money, why risk a political/media backlash to appease a few old school fans.

I think we will also over the next few years we will see the damage coming through in the older fighters, Goodrige is struggling Chuck doesn't interview so well now etc, and we will have enough to worry about with the political issues from that direction.

There will also unfortunately at some point be a death in the UFC (you get deaths in all sports) the momentum over the next decade is likely to be towards making the sport safer than more dangerous.

I would like to see changes in judging criteria and also a guaranteed finish bonus for fights but I think thats all we could hope for.

Pride was great but it's mainstream now and those rules can't come back.
MMA Thread Quote
02-09-2012 , 09:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Swiiftx
Yes, I definitely don't think they are competing or anything, I'm just saying that the growth factor of MMA is larger than boxing and that it will overcome boxing in terms of # of viewers on average, if it hasn't already. I'm also talking about all events and not just the events where the klistch brothers, pacman and Floyd Mayweather Jr fights.
Oh i guess this will be my last post.

Yep, mma has a lot more room to grow, its like in the 90s when snowboarding entered the olympics etc. It grew waaaaaay faster than regular downhill skiing because it was new and relatively small.

Unfortunately for the ufc this growth has stagnated and theyre ppv revenues is actually down from previous year (at least accordibg to jordan breen, lol). For a company which income is 80-90% tied into events revenue, gate ppv sponsors etc thats quite alarming.

I hope and think that the fox deal can change this.
MMA Thread Quote
02-09-2012 , 09:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by elliot10181
I can't see the rules ever being relaxed on knees on the ground and soccer kicks.

Currently the UFC is making a lot of money, why risk a political/media backlash to appease a few old school fans.

I think we will also over the next few years we will see the damage coming through in the older fighters, Goodrige is struggling Chuck doesn't interview so well now etc, and we will have enough to worry about with the political issues from that direction.

There will also unfortunately at some point be a death in the UFC (you get deaths in all sports) the momentum over the next decade is likely to be towards making the sport safer than more dangerous.

I would like to see changes in judging criteria and also a guaranteed finish bonus for fights but I think thats all we could hope for.

Pride was great but it's mainstream now and those rules can't come back.
I do think though there will be less deaths in mma than boxing just because it's not as dangerous to take 1 KO punch than be repedetly punched in the face for 10 rounds(or maybe I'm wrong here?). Also, I think the chuck is chuck, has he ever been good at talking? I mean if you look at Randy Couture, he doesn't seem to have any difficulties talking, or Henderson for that matter. Yes, judging critera needs to be changed asap and same for finishing fight bonus, would opt more people to actually go for broke == interesting fights.


Quote:
Originally Posted by kingofcool
Oh i guess this will be my last post.

Yep, mma has a lot more room to grow, its like in the 90s when snowboarding entered the olympics etc. It grew waaaaaay faster than regular downhill skiing because it was new and relatively small.

Unfortunately for the ufc this growth has stagnated and theyre ppv revenues is actually down from previous year (at least accordibg to jordan breen, lol). For a company which income is 80-90% tied into events revenue, gate ppv sponsors etc thats quite alarming.

I hope and think that the fox deal can change this.
Meh, mayb have to do smth w the economy. It's pretty sick 60 mill where watching the fight in Brazil so I definitely think UFC is a +EV business in the longrun.
MMA Thread Quote
02-09-2012 , 09:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Swiiftx
I do think though there will be less deaths in mma than boxing just because it's not as dangerous to take 1 KO punch than be repedetly punched in the face for 10 rounds(or maybe I'm wrong here?
No ur right but it's kinda obvious. Nature gave us an on/off switch. Boxing gives you 10 seconds to turn the switch at least a little back on.

The first death will prbly be submission related anyways, it's already happened in training
MMA Thread Quote
02-09-2012 , 09:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Swiiftx
I do think though there will be less deaths in mma than boxing just because it's not as dangerous to take 1 KO punch than be repedetly punched in the face for 10 rounds(or maybe I'm wrong here?).
I agree completely there will be fewer deaths than boxing all I was saying is that eventually there will in all likelyhood be a death on a UFC PPV (there are deaths even in soccer). This is why UFC has to always move towards safety in the eyes of the public.

I think it will be from a strike or awkward throw rather than a sub as it takes a long time after you pass out from a choke before you die and all other subs lead to breaks rather than fatality.

It's a horrible thought and I hope it never happens, I'm just trying to explain why introducing soccer kicks and knees on the ground is unrealistic with the growth of the sport.
MMA Thread Quote
02-09-2012 , 09:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by elliot10181
I agree completely there will be fewer deaths than boxing all I was saying is that eventually there will in all likelyhood be a death on a UFC PPV (there are deaths even in soccer). This is why UFC has to always move towards safety in the eyes of the public.

I think it will be from a strike or awkward throw rather than a sub as it takes a long time after you pass out from a choke before you die and all other subs lead to breaks rather than fatality.

It's a horrible thought and I hope it never happens, I'm just trying to explain why introducing soccer kicks and knees on the ground is unrealistic with the growth of the sport.
That's why they don't allow hits to the back of the head, because they are the most fatal and I agree that soccerkicks shouldn't be allowed, I mean, I want the fights to be as safe as possible, I'm not looking for a street fight bc in my book, if you're going to introduce soccer kicks etc, then u might as well take away the gloves, ball kicking, hair pulling and all that **** if you're looking for a real simulation fight.
I don't think it will be from a strike since people who die due to strikes are often when they are unconcious and being hit on the back of the head, damaging the brain since the referee will stop them in time. Also, I don't think it will be a submission either, could be some weird throw if they land on their head, like when Fedor got dropped by some wrestler.
MMA Thread Quote

      
m