What is our play in these situations? We're almost never ahead if we get it in and check/calling lets him draw to what is usually at least two overs. Folding seems weak. I just feel like I'm leaking money in these hands.

Here are probably my two most terribly played hands today. Behold.

Villain 33/13/2.3 and 15 % 3bet over 32 hands.

Poker Stars $200.00 No Limit Hold'em - 5 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

BTN: $272.70
SB: $241.90
BB: $200.00
UTG: $212.35
Hero (CO): $241.00

Pre Flop: ($3.00) Hero is CO with T T
1 fold, Hero raises to $6, BTN raises to $18, 2 folds, Hero calls $12

Flop: ($39.00) 2 2 8 (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets $18.00, Hero calls $18

Turn: ($75.00) 5 (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets $48.00, Hero raises to $205, BTN calls $157

River: ($485.00) 3 (2 players)

Final Pot: $485.00
BTN shows K K
Hero shows T T
BTN wins $483.00
(Rake: $2.00)


Villain 25/18/3.4 and 15 % 3bet over 144 hands.

Poker Stars $200.00 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

BTN: $224.45
SB: $491.70
BB: $88.75
Hero (UTG): $200.00
MP: $226.20
CO: $273.95

Pre Flop: ($3.00) Hero is UTG with J J
Hero raises to $6, 1 fold, CO raises to $20, 3 folds, Hero calls $14

Flop: ($43.00) 8 4 6 (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $25.00, Hero raises to $68, CO raises to $253.95, Hero calls $112 all in

Turn: ($403.00) 7 (2 players - 1 is all in)

River: ($403.00) 6 (2 players - 1 is all in)

Final Pot: $403.00
Hero shows J J
CO shows K K
CO wins $400.00
(Rake: $3.00)

I like the ch/call, ch/call, ch/fold line...but I'm open to being convinced otherwise.

The only other option is to CR the flop...I don't like a turn CR.

I usually 4bet/call both of these and call them coolers lol. I think tje turn c/r in hand 1 is spewy. Hand 2 is ok i guess altho callung flop folding turn may b better.

calling on the flop with the intention of folding if he fires on the turn or river is a huge leak. Fold preflop.

4b/call the first and call it a cooler. And maybe fold pre on second or call pre and c/c flop and c/f turn.

What? Almost every bad reg in the game will cbet and give up.

I tend to favor this line, but I hate what it does to my red line.

What's with folding preflop? We have odds to setmine.

That's fine we can setmine as long as we fold if we don't hit a set. Then, the answer to OP's question is #1:fold on flop, and #2: fold on flop.

We are OOP, so even if they give up on the turn, they still can catch up on the river. Calling on the flop is very bad.

he can't fold post though

I think the second one is slightly worse than the first but tbh if those 3bets are near correct it prob isn't incorrect to 4bet/call either pre. First I'd be more hesitant because donks have very polarized ranges mostly here. Second it just is awk because u raised utg, and generally @ SSNL you won't be getting 3bet too light utg

the first one is totally awful, you can't tell anything about a player's 3 bet range in 32 hands, especially a fish. and fish always 3 bet to 3x with big hands unless they are the type that min raises.

also 6 outs is not that much, you take away his chance to bluff and get in $150 bad when you shove the turn

4bet get it in hand 1 and i fold pre for hand 2

Wow, no.

Is 4bet calling both of these terrible?

Good luck turning a profit with any range calling 3bets oop.

...and no, you do not have odds to setmine.

I'd fold preflop hand 1, and 4bet/call hand 2

What? I would like to stack off hand 1 so much more than hand 2. In hand 2 you get 3betted after opening UTG, you really want to stack JJ? And you fold TT to a BTN 3b after opening CO? Doens't make any sense.

less hands to go off in hand 1, and versus a guy who seems to prefer calling pre rather than 3betting (i.e. 33/13), we dont have enough of a read to know if 4bet/calling TT is profitable... the fact that we're slightly deeper means im happy folding it until I know how he plays with some more certainty.

Hand 2 the guy seems like more of a TAG/reg and he will still be 3betting light versus UTG often enough to make a 4bet/call profitable imo....

no, better than playing a large pot oop without initiative in my opinion

You can't have it both ways. Either the stats are reliable or they are not, and his stats indicate that he likes 3betting (15 % 3bet) if anything.

3bet stats aren't reliable until we have hundreds of hands.

...but vpip/pfr begin to paint a somewhat reliable picture after 40 hands or so