Two Plus Two Publishing LLC Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > No Limit Hold'em > Small Stakes PL/NL

Notices

Small Stakes PL/NL Discussions regarding small stakes pot and no-limit hold'em (50c-1 to 1-2)

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 06-15-2012, 06:06 PM   #1
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
cashy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: awaiting my trip home
Posts: 19,457
planning to C/R but villain overbets

Villain is a tight reg who basically never 3bets vs steal(I expect him to flat JJ very often pre)
he flats cbets very, very wide but gives up to turn/river barrels unless he has a real hand
he is pretty bad player who cant handread at all

was planning to c/r turn and after that failed for the river c/r(i expect him to bet Ax most of the time) but then this very weird overbet
as said earlier pretty much all JJ combos in his range, he probably is bad enough to slowplay 76 or other sets on the turn sometimes too

PokerStars Zoom No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (6 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Button ($162.15)
SB ($109.35)
BB ($105.58)
UTG ($146.15)
MP ($122.59)
Hero (CO) ($209.88)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 4, 4
1 fold, MP calls $1, Hero bets $3, Button calls $3, 2 folds, MP calls $2

Flop: ($10.50) 4, A, 8 (3 players)
MP checks, Hero bets $8.02, Button calls $8.02, 1 fold

Turn: ($26.54) 5 (2 players)
Hero checks, Button checks

River: ($26.54) J (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $36, Hero
cashy is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-15-2012, 06:22 PM   #2
grinder
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Dublin
Posts: 578
Re: planning to C/R but villain overbets

Not a fan of the turn c/r. I think HU it has some merit but 3 way, he is going to have hands which have showdown value more often than not.

I'd definitely just go for three streets. I don't like your river check either. If he's as bad as you say, he's unlikely to fold any pair but almost never has a hand strong enough to call a c/r.

River is really weird. It is so rare to see people checking back sets here on the turn, so you are only really worried about JJ. I think its a call as played, can't imagine folding as he can be value betting AJ but a river c/r here should fold out anything worse.
_jimbo_ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-15-2012, 06:47 PM   #3
centurion
 
GreenDragon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 190
Re: planning to C/R but villain overbets

this action is very dependent on who sits on the Btn
as you describe him, your line is good
but i do not see the hands that will call your c/r and loose
so with overbet i just call river
GreenDragon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-15-2012, 06:47 PM   #4
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
cashy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: awaiting my trip home
Posts: 19,457
Re: planning to C/R but villain overbets

yes, turn c/r is very debatable but once i get to the river like that a river c/r is mandatory against a mediocre reg who will bet his weak made hands too often and most importantly talks himself into a call of the c/r far too often too
cashy is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-15-2012, 06:54 PM   #5
grinder
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Dublin
Posts: 578
Re: planning to C/R but villain overbets

Quote:
Originally Posted by cashy View Post
yes, turn c/r is very debatable but once i get to the river like that a river c/r is mandatory against a mediocre reg who will bet his weak made hands too often and most importantly talks himself into a call of the c/r far too often too
Yeah, I think that's true assuming he bets something reasonable. But when he overbets, even a fishy kind of reg expects you to never be bluffing here.
_jimbo_ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-15-2012, 08:11 PM   #6
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Jever's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Javelling wars
Posts: 7,313
Re: planning to C/R but villain overbets

Not a fan of turn x/r. Villain is too often checking behind such a dry board. Because there is really not much value in it, since we show so much strength by leading into 3 ppl. And there's really not much he'll get value from by x/ring turn after x/cing flop rainbow.
As played, good river check, good river call.
Jever is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-15-2012, 10:50 PM   #7
veteran
 
AshleyC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: London
Posts: 3,044
Re: planning to C/R but villain overbets

Why the *** would you c/r turn with JJ in this spot? If you had no sd value but some equity then maybe...

When he checks back turn and overbets river I doubt he has many bluffs (compared to value hands he'd call a raise with) so i'd just call river.

His range is basically (1/4 combos of AJ, 1/8 combos 55, 1/8 88, 1/4 JJ, 1/4 some random ****e)

Last edited by AshleyC; 06-15-2012 at 10:56 PM.
AshleyC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-15-2012, 11:06 PM   #8
Pooh-Bah
 
Nirwanda's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 4,889
Re: planning to C/R but villain overbets

Turn c/r is good against stubborn villains (and there are a ton of those).
Readless bet/bet/bet is superior though imo.

And yeah, river is a mandatory c/r when you get there like this. The overbet is weird since you look pretty weak at this point, and even though I think you're good 80%+ of the time I honestly don't think raising river is higher EV than calling (maybe that's the nit in me speaking though).
Nirwanda is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2012, 11:07 AM   #9
Pooh-Bah
 
CombatCarl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Somewhere in Asia
Posts: 3,704
Re: planning to C/R but villain overbets

Quote:
Originally Posted by _jimbo_ View Post
Not a fan of the turn c/r. I think HU it has some merit but 3 way, he is going to have hands which have showdown value more often than not.

I'd definitely just go for three streets. I don't like your river check either. If he's as bad as you say, he's unlikely to fold any pair but almost never has a hand strong enough to call a c/r.

River is really weird. It is so rare to see people checking back sets here on the turn, so you are only really worried about JJ. I think its a call as played, can't imagine folding as he can be value betting AJ but a river c/r here should fold out anything worse.
I like jimbo's reasons here. That's pretty much my standard value line as well when I'm oop. I don't like counting on CR when I'm oop. CR also just looks too strong, and the opponent ends up folding often.

As played, river really is a weird spot. I don't see much value in raising since he is pretty much never calling with worse. I think it's just a call now. I would never ever fold though.

You did play it in a way that he could easily value raise worse like two pairs. He pretty much never expects you to have a set here, I think.

So in the end, it's actually close between flatting and 3betting.
CombatCarl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2012, 11:15 AM   #10
veteran
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Sweden
Posts: 3,483
Re: planning to C/R but villain overbets

turn is debatable but not terrible by any means vs described villain. i would consider just x/c turn x/r river though if you think his range is really weak and bluff heavy.

on the river i am almost reluctant to call the overbet vs this guy, but i guess he sometimes shows us AJ, maybe some weird misclick... heh. raising is probably suicide.
riske is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2012, 05:57 PM   #11
veteran
 
AshleyC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: London
Posts: 3,044
Re: planning to C/R but villain overbets

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nirwanda View Post
Turn c/r is good against stubborn villains (and there are a ton of those).
.
Stubborn in what way?

By turn c/r are we trying to get him to fold AJ, AT? On this dry board he flats flop vv often w 44 and 88 and will often float with 67 so he can easily have the nuts. If we think he floats with a lot of weaker hands then just check-call rather than check-raise as we'll be ahead of some of his turn betting range when checked to. What are we trying to accomplish by turn c/r? It looks fos to me as how often would we do it when we have sets / 67 here rather than just barrell?
AshleyC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2012, 08:42 PM   #12
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Keyser.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: thought highly of, in theory
Posts: 11,435
Re: planning to C/R but villain overbets

even bad regs bet/call vs the stack-a-donk with AJ still? I really hate the turn c/r. I'm pretty sure it's the only way you can get stacks in on the turn with a set and not have the best hand
Keyser. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2012, 09:09 PM   #13
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
cashy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: awaiting my trip home
Posts: 19,457
Re: planning to C/R but villain overbets

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keyser. View Post
even bad regs bet/call vs the stack-a-donk with AJ still? I really hate the turn c/r. I'm pretty sure it's the only way you can get stacks in on the turn with a set and not have the best hand
bad, tight regs usually hate folding toppair especially against unconventional lines.
you make it sound like a bluff c/r is great on the turn with air(you basically expect him to fold his entire turn betting range?) but i dont think that is the case given that we rep such a narrow range so we get called down a big percentage of the time

Quote:
Originally Posted by AshleyC View Post
It looks fos to me as how often would we do it when we have sets / 67 here rather than just barrell?
exactly why we get called down so often by "stubborn/non-believing" villains
cashy is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2012, 09:12 PM   #14
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Keyser.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: thought highly of, in theory
Posts: 11,435
Bluff cr turn is bad bc it is crazy expensive and villain has the straight and sets and 2p. If you knew villain had AJ then bluff cr turn all you want. And villain can also check turns which makes doing it with a draw not as good as barelling. With no draw you bluff cr 0 equity??
Keyser. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2012, 12:14 PM   #15
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
cashy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: awaiting my trip home
Posts: 19,457
Re: planning to C/R but villain overbets

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keyser. View Post
Bluff cr turn is bad bc it is crazy expensive and villain has the straight and sets and 2p. If you knew villain had AJ then bluff cr turn all you want. And villain can also check turns which makes doing it with a draw not as good as barelling. With no draw you bluff cr 0 equity??
which is what, 10-15% of his range?
too expensive? you risking like 60 to win 45 so assuming he folds everything but sets, 2p and straight a bluff c/r would be crazy profitable
cashy is online now   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:05 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2013, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.6.0 ©2011, Crawlability, Inc.
Copyright © 2008-2010, Two Plus Two Interactive