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Old 06-10-2012, 05:03 PM   #1
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Oop TB with TPTK facing shove on river 100NL Zoom

I was playing 32.7/25.1/af3.94/3bet7.1 568 hands

The villain on UTG is 20/17/af2.5/3bet6.3 UTG Open 27 114 hands

I didn't think about BB but BB is unknown, probably a fish.

This is the only AK on later positions that I didn't 3bet or Squeeze.

I flatted preflop to balance my range.

So I lead TB F 3/4 pot T 3/4 pot R 3/5 pot. I didn't want him to check back any street. I had him on worse K, QQ, JJ, T9s, or TJs but that's it. I thought the board texture looked beautiful just perfect and safe for my TPTK to get value vs KQ for instance.

He took his time and shoved over my lead. I found this to be a pretty tough spot on river. I think he's repping like AA, KK, 88, 77 but at the same time, my VB size on river allows him to bluff with a decent FE, TJs or T9s may be?

What does my hand look like to you, if you are the villain here?

What do you think of my oop TB line? Check/calling sucks no?

What would you do on river?

Poker Stars, $0.50/$1 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players

BTN: $147.95 (148 bb)
Hero (SB): $125.81 (125.8 bb)
BB: $46.39 (46.4 bb)
UTG: $191.49 (191.5 bb)
MP: $114.27 (114.3 bb)
CO: $101.50 (101.5 bb)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K A
UTG raises to $3, 3 folds, Hero calls $2.50, BB calls $2

Flop: ($9) K 8 7 (3 players)
Hero bets $6.45, BB folds, UTG calls $6.45

Turn: ($21.90) 3 (2 players)
Hero bets $15.68, UTG calls $15.68

River: ($53.26) 2 (2 players)
Hero bets $35, UTG raises to $166.36 and is all-in, Hero pukes all over the keyboard.......

Last edited by CombatCarl; 06-10-2012 at 05:29 PM. Reason: mistake
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Old 06-10-2012, 05:17 PM   #2
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Re: Oop TB with TPTK facing shove on river 100NL Zoom

yeah, puke fold

it looks like you have kq, 78, something along those lines
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Old 06-10-2012, 09:36 PM   #3
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Re: Oop TB with TPTK facing shove on river 100NL Zoom

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yeah, puke fold

it looks like you have kq, 78, something along those lines
Isn't it more like a puke call?
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Old 06-12-2012, 04:57 PM   #4
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Re: Oop TB with TPTK facing shove on river 100NL Zoom

OK so it took him 20 seconds to over shove. - Why take so long?

I had 30 + (time bank)90 seconds to think about this hand.

I took out AA, KK, and AK since I have AK. So basically he is only repping 77 and 88 combos.

My SB call open range is wide so T9s, 65s, or TJs are well within that range. Sets are gonna want to protect and charge against those range.

Also sets are gonna wanna build the pot in position. Over shove river is bad because you are cramming value and risking fold. So he either has missed draws or hands with SD value that he turned into bluff. That's my conclusion. It took me over 1 minute to put it together.

Poker Stars, $0.50/$1 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players

BTN: $147.95 (148 bb)
Hero (SB): $125.81 (125.8 bb)
BB: $46.39 (46.4 bb)
UTG: $191.49 (191.5 bb)
MP: $114.27 (114.3 bb)
CO: $101.50 (101.5 bb)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K A
UTG raises to $3, 3 folds, Hero calls $2.50, BB calls $2

Flop: ($9) K 8 7 (3 players)
Hero bets $6.45, BB folds, UTG calls $6.45

Turn: ($21.90) 3 (2 players)
Hero bets $15.68, UTG calls $15.68

River: ($53.26) 2 (2 players)
Hero bets $35, UTG raises to $166.36 and is all-in, Hero calls $65.68 and is all-in

Results: $254.62 pot ($2.80 rake)
Final Board: K 8 7 3 2
Hero showed K A and won $251.82 ($126.01 net)
UTG showed 9 9 and lost (-$125.81 net)

His line is a puzzle. If he was planning to turn his hand into bluff, why does he take so long to over shove? I think taking a long time is a tell imo.

In the end, I like my river bet size because it caused him to bluff/shove.
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Old 06-12-2012, 05:05 PM   #5
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Re: Oop TB with TPTK facing shove on river 100NL Zoom

yeah that's pretty terrible. I don't understand why people try to bluff you off a range that just donked flop and bet turn and river in a 3way pot vs an utg opener. He's doing it wrong.

I don't know why you said that you're not sure why he took so long. He wasn't planning to turn it into a bluff when he called turn. He was probably just hoping you quit betting.
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Old 06-12-2012, 05:13 PM   #6
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Re: Oop TB with TPTK facing shove on river 100NL Zoom

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Originally Posted by Keyser. View Post
yeah that's pretty terrible. I don't understand why people try to bluff you off a range that just donked flop and bet turn and river in a 3way pot vs an utg opener. He's doing it wrong.

I don't know why you said that you're not sure why he took so long. He wasn't planning to turn it into a bluff when he called turn. He was probably just hoping you quit betting.
Great insight!! I get it now!!

He didn't believe that I had K but when I bet the river, he thought of calling, calling, calling, calling, and then realized that I had one, so he decided to bluff/shove. Yes, that makes a perfect sense because that would take a long time.

Thanks.
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Old 06-12-2012, 05:59 PM   #7
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Re: Oop TB with TPTK facing shove on river 100NL Zoom

Villain would have owned me because I'd be pretty likely to fold river.

Not many people turn busted draws/stuff into bluffs OTR because if they are capable of that they are also likely to play said draws more aggro on earlier streets.

Ignoring timing stuff, I don't think it's a great river call against the player pool.
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Old 06-12-2012, 06:14 PM   #8
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Re: Oop TB with TPTK facing shove on river 100NL Zoom

I would fold too if I took that line with AK (though I probably wouldn't take that line) but I think villain's play is still really bad because of the reasons I said ^^

I know you weren't really disagreeing, just fwiw I think his bluff is dumb because our range is very strong and while I would fold I don't expect most people to fold

plus it's just 65 to call into a 218, just no way people are folding enough there or even have enough 1 pair hands in their range that could even consider folding for that bluff to be good
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Old 06-12-2012, 06:16 PM   #9
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Re: Oop TB with TPTK facing shove on river 100NL Zoom

His line is so retarded given your range is really polarized to 77/88/78s or missed draws with the very occasional AK/KQ. Nice call.
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Old 06-12-2012, 06:25 PM   #10
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Re: Oop TB with TPTK facing shove on river 100NL Zoom

Yeah for completeness' sake I'd call 3x as villain FWIW
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Old 06-12-2012, 06:39 PM   #11
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Re: Oop TB with TPTK facing shove on river 100NL Zoom

[ ] GAMES ARE DEAD
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Old 06-12-2012, 06:51 PM   #12
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U have fired 3 bullets and he called and now otr he bomb shove it. I mean V is not even aggro and ur holding a bluffcatcher where i have a hard time seeing V bluff.

Sure u made the right decision on this exact hand so well played. But i doubt this is +EV long run. U did mention that he took a long time b4 he shoved so maybe with some timing tells and dynamic it might be a good call.

I would fold tho.
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Old 06-12-2012, 07:42 PM   #13
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Re: Oop TB with TPTK facing shove on river 100NL Zoom

I'd fold river
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Old 06-12-2012, 08:27 PM   #14
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Re: Oop TB with TPTK facing shove on river 100NL Zoom

+1 to i<32
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Old 06-12-2012, 08:42 PM   #15
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Re: Oop TB with TPTK facing shove on river 100NL Zoom

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Originally Posted by 0mar Comin View Post
+1 to i<32
I dunno, I'm not sure if I agree that hero has many missed draws here. I think it could be fine to donk something like AQdd but beyond that we shouldn't really have any T9/JT/65 type hands in our SB vs UTG flatting range. Even if we did I'm not sure if people ever donk those hands although I do think donking them would be okay. Donking those would be much better if relative positions were different, like if UTG opens, BTN flats, and call SB with JT I think a donk would be cool.

Hero's river sizing doesn't look too bluffy either.
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