Went to showdown% - Small Stakes Pot Limit and No Limit

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Went to showdown%

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01-21-2008 , 02:42 PM

Nielsio

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 23,398

What is considered a normal wtsd%, and what high and what low?

What % should we be aiming for and why. And how much does it depend on style.

Also, how do vpip and wtsd relate?

01-21-2008 , 02:48 PM

SamuraiJon

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 5,203

yeah I always wondered this myself. 28+ is considered a calling station. 25 I thought was on the high end of the spectrum for regs and 20 is considered low.

01-21-2008 , 03:00 PM

hotbacon

veteran

Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 2,461

higher vpip means lower wtsd bc youre seeing the flop with much more marginal hands and therefore will not go to showdown as much.

mine is 23 fwiw and i play about 28/22

01-21-2008 , 03:06 PM

Snamuh

veteran

Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 2,719

Mine is 21 and I play 19.5/17. I feel like mine is lower than it should be though. On the other hand, my W$WSF is 44.

01-21-2008 , 03:18 PM

Quester

adept

Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 1,088

Quote:

Originally Posted by hotbacon

higher vpip means lower wtsd bc youre seeing the flop with much more marginal hands and therefore will not go to showdown as much.

mine is 23 fwiw and i play about 28/22

Out of curiosity, what is your W$SD and your river af?

I ask because I'm playing around 25/22 right now, but my WTSD is around 26 I believe (not near stats atm).

01-21-2008 , 03:19 PM

hotbacon

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Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 2,461

W$SD mostly depends on how i'm running but it is usually around 48ish or so. my riv af is 5 i believe

01-21-2008 , 03:21 PM

Nick Royale

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Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 29,740

At 200nl I'm having 26% wtsd playing 26/22. I don't think I'm a station and I think could find more spots to go to sd.

01-21-2008 , 03:21 PM

Fletcher19

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 4,131

mine is 25 playing 24/21. 50% w$wsf

01-21-2008 , 03:21 PM

Quester

adept

Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 1,088

Quote:

Originally Posted by hotbacon

W$SD mostly depends on how i'm running but it is usually around 48ish or so. my riv af is 5 i believe

Ok thanks. I'm looking for leaks, I think I may show down too many losers. Our preflop stats are similar so I wanted a comparison.

01-21-2008 , 03:23 PM

#10

NicholasJ

veteran

Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 2,761

20-26% is fine. I have found that aggression has a lot to do with it as well in that excessive aggression can lower wtsd and w$sd.

01-21-2008 , 03:25 PM

#11

King Car

adept

Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 1,001

20% wtsd playing 24/18. Too low?

01-21-2008 , 03:26 PM

#12

Kairos

journeyman

Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 232

Mine is 24-25 at 22/19 and I consider myself kindof a station.
Looking at it isolated is pretty useless imo as it depends so much on personal style. In connection with W$SD it could tell you wether you vbet thinly enough.

My W$SD is 48 and I think I vbet slightly too thin.

01-21-2008 , 03:27 PM

#13

Ranger_Trivette

grinder

Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 691

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick Royale

At 200nl I'm having 26% wtsd playing 26/22. I don't think I'm a station and I think could find more spots to go to sd.

I dont play the same stats, but wtsd percentage is the same. And my thoughts are the same concering showdown.

01-21-2008 , 03:30 PM

#14

Keyser.

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Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 11,711

I don't think these really matter that much but meh.

WTSD is 21.38 playing 20.16/17.19/5.16, with a W$WSF at 44.01 and a W$SD at 50.24 over my last sample

01-21-2008 , 03:31 PM

#15

Keyser.

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Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 11,711

Quote:

Originally Posted by hotbacon

W$SD mostly depends on how i'm running but it is usually around 48ish or so. my riv af is 5 i believe

5 is a pretty sickly high river af am I right?

01-21-2008 , 03:34 PM

#16

spivey

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Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 9,751

Yeah, 5 is a crazy af for river. Mine is 2.5-3 and I'm more aggro than most.

01-21-2008 , 03:36 PM

#17

Quester

adept

Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 1,088

I'm struggling to get up to 2 af on the river...

01-21-2008 , 03:37 PM

#18

Fletcher19

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Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 4,131

5 is superuser territory

01-21-2008 , 03:39 PM

#19

Keyser.

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Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 11,711

My river AF is 2.5 and I feel like I'm pretty aggressive there too. Can't imagine being twice as aggressive. Are you just value towning everything? Bluffing every time you don't have great showdown value?

01-21-2008 , 03:42 PM

#20

Panthro

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Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 3,965

18/14

22 wtsd%

01-21-2008 , 03:44 PM

#21

Nick Royale

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Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 29,740

I would guess a high wwsf could result in lower wtsd. Thoughts? Edit: Pretty much what K Nicholas said.

Mine wwsf is 45% and my wtsd is 26%. Both pretty high numbers, even though my wwsf could be a bit higher I guess.

01-21-2008 , 03:51 PM

#22

Nick Royale

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Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 29,740

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kairos

I don't you'll get to know alot about if you're v-betting thin enoughby comparing wtsd and w$sd. It tells you more about if you're folding too many winners (ie not call down light enough). But a low w$sd could probably be a sign of a bluffy/aggressive player if it's combined with a high wwsf.

01-21-2008 , 04:01 PM

#23

Fletcher19

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Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 4,131

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick Royale

I would guess a high wwsf could result in lower wtsd. Thoughts? Edit: Pretty much what K Nicholas said.

Mine wwsf is 45% and my wtsd is 26%. Both pretty high numbers, even though my wwsf could be a bit higher I guess.

They rise together in my experience. When i played super crazy at 5/10 i had a 52% wwsf with a 30% wtsd. I am pretty sure fabian has posted similar stats somewhere. maybe try to find a screenshot of kotkis' PT

01-21-2008 , 04:01 PM

#24

hotbacon

veteran

Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 2,461

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keyser.

just checked pt and it looks like i lied, it's actually 4.

i think it's a combo of me being very aggro and not paying off enough no the river? i dunno, i sorta changed styles this month and my riv af went from just above 2 to 4. i guess it's mostly cuz i'm bluffing more

01-21-2008 , 04:03 PM

#25

Claunchy

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Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 10,758

46 WWSF, 27 WTSD. Only a 2 river AF though

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