Two Plus Two Publishing LLC Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

Small Stakes PL/NL Discussions regarding small stakes pot and no-limit hold'em (50c-1 to 1-2)

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 05-11-2017, 05:45 PM   #1
Minatorr
old hand
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 1,387
Hero call with 3rd pair?

I think pre & flop are pretty standard. OTT, I think the A is a good card for me since it reduces his # of value hands he can have. He has quite a lot of draws that he's going to continue barreling with.

OTR, he overbets 1.5x pot. In-game, I thought he was only repping a full house because I still have A9/AJo in my range, and that he wasn't that likely going to take this line with AQ/AK. I block A9/99, don't block any straight draws, and don't block any hearts. Thoughts on any streets?

PokerStars - $2 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

SB: 201.5 BB (VPIP: 24.00, PFR: 20.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 25)
Hero (BB): 204.37 BB
UTG: 177.13 BB (VPIP: 37.74, PFR: 21.70, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 107)
MP: 138.85 BB (VPIP: 28.57, PFR: 10.71, 3Bet Preflop: 5.88, Hands: 28)
CO: 100 BB (VPIP: 26.67, PFR: 15.00, 3Bet Preflop: 3.57, Hands: 61)
BTN: 102.18 BB (VPIP: 22.08, PFR: 16.88, 3Bet Preflop: 5.71, Hands: 78)

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, Hero posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has 9 4

fold, fold, fold, BTN raises to 2 BB, fold, Hero calls 1 BB

Flop: (4.5 BB, 2 players) 9 J A
Hero checks, BTN bets 2 BB, Hero calls 2 BB

Turn: (8.5 BB, 2 players) A
Hero checks, BTN bets 6 BB, Hero calls 6 BB

River: (20.5 BB, 2 players) 3
Hero checks, BTN bets 25 BB, Hero calls 25 BB
Minatorr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2017, 09:00 PM   #2
Oregon Rick
centurion
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 198
Re: Hero call with 3rd pair?

If I were going to play that hand from the BB Vs a Btn raise, I would have 3bet it preflop.
Oregon Rick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2017, 11:10 PM   #3
.isolated
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
.isolated's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Team J.A.M.M.A.T. :D <3
Posts: 11,547
Diamond Re: Hero call with 3rd pair?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oregon Rick View Post
If I were going to play that hand from the BB Vs a Btn raise, I would have 3bet it preflop.
What an interesting take on the hand. There are worse hands to 3-bet to a minr. I'm flatting as well fwiw.

Minotaur, since this was played on Ignition, I'd snap call. I find overbets to be polarized toward bluffs and exact pot bets to be polarized toward value. At least at $25 and $100 Zone.

Quote:
OTR, he overbets 1.5x pot.
I am a nit. It wasn't 1.5x pot
.isolated is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2017, 01:36 AM   #4
Minatorr
old hand
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 1,387
Re: Hero call with 3rd pair?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oregon Rick View Post
If I were going to play that hand from the BB Vs a Btn raise, I would have 3bet it preflop.
The problem with 3-betting is that 94s doesnt have a lot of playability in 3-bet pots vs say 96s. Also, if you're 3-betting 94s, you're probably going to get exploited by getting 4-bet a lot or flatted a lot pre. I don't have exact numbers, but a 25-35% 3-bet vs BTN from the BB doesnt sound like a good idea
Minatorr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2017, 05:19 AM   #5
Harry155
journeyman
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 217
Re: Hero call with 3rd pair?

Turn seems too loose, some of the draws have as many as 21 outs against you and obviously dead to any ace. I guess if you're calling turn you have to be prepared to call some blank rivers and this one's as blank as they come. There are 15 definite value combos (he probably wouldn't play AK this way on the river or A3 on the turn) and at least as many missed draws.
Harry155 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2017, 09:04 AM   #6
Oregon Rick
centurion
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 198
Re: Hero call with 3rd pair?

The reason I said "If" iwere going to play this hand, I would 3bet with it is this:
-94s is a crappy hand to just be calling with oop.
-If we ever hit our 9, it has a weak kicker and close to 40% of the deck are still scare cards.
-If we ever hit our 4, about 70% of the deck would bring scare cards.
-In order to hit a straight with this hand, we have to hit 4 running cards, and it never has an opportunity to be nutty.
-If we ever flop a flush, and a turn card comes bringing 4 to a flush it puts us in a bad spot.
-I see no value in calling with this hand. This is why I say that "If" I were to play it, I would raise with it. Atleast by raising, I can represent something stronger and gain some bluff equity.
Oregon Rick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2017, 11:01 AM   #7
just_grindin
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 4,003
Re: Hero call with 3rd pair?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oregon Rick View Post
The reason I said "If" iwere going to play this hand, I would 3bet with it is this:
-94s is a crappy hand to just be calling with oop.
-If we ever hit our 9, it has a weak kicker and close to 40% of the deck are still scare cards.
-If we ever hit our 4, about 70% of the deck would bring scare cards.
-In order to hit a straight with this hand, we have to hit 4 running cards, and it never has an opportunity to be nutty.
-If we ever flop a flush, and a turn card comes bringing 4 to a flush it puts us in a bad spot.
-I see no value in calling with this hand. This is why I say that "If" I were to play it, I would raise with it. Atleast by raising, I can represent something stronger and gain some bluff equity.
Those are valid points but there is a big difference between making more than -1 bb by risking 1 additional bb with 94s and making more than -1 bb by risking an additional 6 bb.

Not trying to make an argument out of this because from what I can tell your preference would be fold, 3bet, then call.

Sent from my SM-G900R4 using Tapatalk
just_grindin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2017, 07:29 PM   #8
Minatorr
old hand
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 1,387
Re: Hero call with 3rd pair?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry155 View Post
Turn seems too loose, some of the draws have as many as 21 outs against you and obviously dead to any ace. I guess if you're calling turn you have to be prepared to call some blank rivers and this one's as blank as they come. There are 15 definite value combos (he probably wouldn't play AK this way on the river or A3 on the turn) and at least as many missed draws.
So you're folding Jx OTT? Seems a little tight to me since 9x and Jx are basically the same thing OTT.
Minatorr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2017, 11:36 AM   #9
Harry155
journeyman
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 217
Re: Hero call with 3rd pair?

Obviously I wouldn't fold any of the Jhx hands and I'd call with all of the stronger Jx, let some of the weaker ones go. If you're calling here with your weaker 9s which hands are you folding?
Harry155 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-14-2017, 05:30 AM   #10
Minatorr
old hand
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 1,387
Re: Hero call with 3rd pair?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry155 View Post
Obviously I wouldn't fold any of the Jhx hands and I'd call with all of the stronger Jx, let some of the weaker ones go. If you're calling here with your weaker 9s which hands are you folding?
KQ, K10, any pocket pair 88- I didn't 3-bet pre. So I'm folding quite a bit of hands on this turn.

I agree that he doesn't play AK often like this OTR, so his value range is super narrow. I thought he would only do this with boats, and since I have A9/AJ in my range, I thought he doesn't take this line with JJ often either. So I thought he was repping only AJ/A9. With the 9 blocker to A9 & not blocking any bluffs at all, I just clicked call.

Last edited by Minatorr; 05-14-2017 at 05:43 AM.
Minatorr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-14-2017, 05:36 AM   #11
Minatorr
old hand
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 1,387
Re: Hero call with 3rd pair?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oregon Rick View Post
The reason I said "If" iwere going to play this hand, I would 3bet with it is this:
-94s is a crappy hand to just be calling with oop.\
-If we ever hit our 9, it has a weak kicker and close to 40% of the deck are still scare cards.
-If we ever hit our 4, about 70% of the deck would bring scare cards.
-In order to hit a straight with this hand, we have to hit 4 running cards, and it never has an opportunity to be nutty.
-If we ever flop a flush, and a turn card comes bringing 4 to a flush it puts us in a bad spot.
-I see no value in calling with this hand. This is why I say that "If" I were to play it, I would raise with it. Atleast by raising, I can represent something stronger and gain some bluff equity.
You can't 3-bet 94s here because you'd have like a 40% 3-bet BB vs BTN. So it's a call or fold. I'm not folding getting 3.5 to 1 on a call with a suited hand here against a wide BTN range. I'm pretty confident it's +EV. I don't find playing OOP to be that hard unless it's a 3-bet pot where I'm 130bb+ deep effective.

Not trying to pick on you or anything, but from this post it just seems you are super uncomfortable with playing OOP.

Last edited by Minatorr; 05-14-2017 at 05:43 AM.
Minatorr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-14-2017, 11:20 AM   #12
Oregon Rick
centurion
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 198
Re: Hero call with 3rd pair?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minatorr View Post
You can't 3-bet 94s here because you'd have like a 40% 3-bet BB vs BTN. So it's a call or fold. I'm not folding getting 3.5 to 1 on a call with a suited hand here against a wide BTN range. I'm pretty confident it's +EV. I don't find playing OOP to be that hard unless it's a 3-bet pot where I'm 130bb+ deep effective.

Not trying to pick on you or anything, but from this post it just seems you are super uncomfortable with playing OOP.
I feel fine playing oop. By calling here, we aren't repping any strength here. We are just calling villain down here without ever even trying to show villain that we could have a hand like A9. The way this hand was played is just throwing money away in the long run. I would rather 3bet preflop and Rep a hand that would be hitting this flop through cbetting, and if I run into too much resistance, I can x/f. This hand should be a pretty easy hand to get away from. Calling down here is horrible.

As far as having a 40% 3bet from BB Vs Btn, I don't see that information in the original post. If that's the case, I would just fold preflop here and move on to the next hand.
If I were going to call, it would be with a hand similar to this one but not quite so horrible...98s, 97s,96s, 87s.

Last edited by Oregon Rick; 05-14-2017 at 11:31 AM.
Oregon Rick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-14-2017, 11:29 AM   #13
the real mg0698
old hand
 
the real mg0698's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: South Florida
Posts: 1,615
Re: Hero call with 3rd pair?

I think pre and flop are fine, I actually don't like 3betting and prefer a call>fold>3b

As played I think if you are calling 9x on the turn then you are just calling too often, You still have tons of Ax and Jx and even Kx FD's that you call. I'd just fold this on the turn with out any reads, And I'd definitely fold river as played.
the real mg0698 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-14-2017, 11:41 AM   #14
Oregon Rick
centurion
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 198
Re: Hero call with 3rd pair?

I hope we aren't all getting in a pissing match here. I am always eager to learn more about this great game. I know that I still have so much to learn, and my game has already came so far.
Sometimes, I find myself not thinking about a situation correctly after others in the forums show me where my thinking is flawed.
I really do enjoy disecting these hands with everyone, but I will not always have the correct approach. So please give me a little bit of leeway here. I am only trying to better my game and hopefully make some friends along the way.
It is obvious how some of you disect hands that you are a bit further along than me. I hope that through these forums that I too can get to that level.
I am used to playing on Ignition where I kill it at 200nl and 400nl, but the player pool on this site is probably like playing at 25nl on the sites that a lot of you play on.
Please don't be too hard on me. I only want to learn more about the game.
Oregon Rick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-14-2017, 04:11 PM   #15
Minatorr
old hand
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 1,387
Re: Hero call with 3rd pair?

^^ No, I don't really engage much in pissing contests. That's usually on the LLSNL, which I don't learn as much as from this part of the forums.

General consensus seems to be folding turn. I agree that calling all my 9x here is too much. I think we should fold most of our 9x OTT. I prob fold 9x with a heart, 109o that blocks QT/KT, 98o, just basically all my 9x that blocks his bluffing candidates. I just think this was one of my better hands to call with since I block no straight draws or backdoor diamonds.

I called river and Villain shows QTo.

Last edited by Minatorr; 05-14-2017 at 04:40 PM.
Minatorr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-15-2017, 04:27 AM   #16
Minatorr
old hand
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 1,387
Re: Hero call with 3rd pair?

Thanks for the response, guys! They were helpful. I've been seeing a lot of spew since moving up to 200NL, and I probably would have stationed a 9x with blockers to his bluffs OTT tbh here lol in-game, prob fold river though. We have a lot of Jx/Ax that can defend this turn, so we don't need to station all our 9x (although they are same strength as Jx). I just can't bring myself to fold here OTT though with no blockers to his bluffs though haha, and a blocker to 99/A9. If it's even profitable, it's probably super marginal since we have another street to play as well, but I'm quite a station sometimes when it comes to bluff-catching. I think in a vacuum though, folding 94dd here OTT can't be bad at all.
Minatorr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-15-2017, 11:21 AM   #17
mucknuts
adept
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 725
Re: Hero call with 3rd pair?

Pre and flop fine.

Turn is a fold. We're so low in our range, no visibility for the river, no real reason to strongly feel we're ahead either. Not many people going to be rando bluffing this turn tbh, we have better hands to defend turn with anyway.
mucknuts is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-16-2017, 01:00 PM   #18
RalphWaldoEmerson
Pooh-Bah
 
RalphWaldoEmerson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: mtt retiree
Posts: 4,161
Re: Hero call with 3rd pair?

Who knows what he does this with. It's 2nl. W/o reads, just fold. People don't bluff enough, except for the people that bluff too much.
RalphWaldoEmerson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-16-2017, 01:05 PM   #19
mucknuts
adept
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 725
Re: Hero call with 3rd pair?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RalphWaldoEmerson View Post
Who knows what he does this with. It's 2nl. W/o reads, just fold. People don't bluff enough, except for the people that bluff too much.
It's 200nl.
mucknuts is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-16-2017, 08:35 PM   #20
RalphWaldoEmerson
Pooh-Bah
 
RalphWaldoEmerson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: mtt retiree
Posts: 4,161
Re: Hero call with 3rd pair?

lol my bad.

yeah this seems ok, idk why you you think V can't do this with naked Ax though? It's not a big OB and Hero doesn't have anywhere near enough boats that this would be a bad rangeplay for him with <FH.
RalphWaldoEmerson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-16-2017, 09:37 PM   #21
Minatorr
old hand
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 1,387
Re: Hero call with 3rd pair?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RalphWaldoEmerson View Post
lol my bad.

yeah this seems ok, idk why you you think V can't do this with naked Ax though? It's not a big OB and Hero doesn't have anywhere near enough boats that this would be a bad rangeplay for him with <FH.
I think it's less likely, and it'd have to be AK/AQ/A10. I don't think he does this often at all with A8- when I can still have A9+ here.

Last edited by Minatorr; 05-16-2017 at 09:51 PM.
Minatorr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-17-2017, 01:30 PM   #22
Triumph36
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Triumph36's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Osi Ukin'-yora
Posts: 40,912
Re: Hero call with 3rd pair?

You aren't repping A9 or AJ that often here and if your opponent will take this line with AK/AQ (which TBH he should) you're often in rough shape. Overall I think it's fine if your opponent is a serial barreler or is smart enough to know that your flop range here is made up of all sorts of trash and will barrel turn with semi-bluffs with the intention of getting you to fold on river even if you don't fold turn. But most times I think I would just give up the turn.
Triumph36 is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:25 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Optimisation provided by DragonByte SEO v2.0.33 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2017 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright ę 2008-2010, Two Plus Two Interactive
 
 
Poker Players - Streaming Live Online