PokerStars - $20 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

PLR_7470293MK (BTN): $3,348.00 (VPIP: 21.34, PFR: 12.80, 3Bet Preflop: 2.08, Hands: 167)
PLR_2567185RX (SB): $3,828.50 (VPIP: 25.00, PFR: 20.39, 3Bet Preflop: 2.33, Hands: 157)
Hero (BB): $2,480.00
PLR_8197078ZV (UTG): $2,030.00 (VPIP: 19.31, PFR: 15.86, 3Bet Preflop: 1.92, Hands: 146)
PLR_7342388UJ (MP): $829.00 (VPIP: 15.09, PFR: 12.26, 3Bet Preflop: 4.76, Hands: 107)
PLR_8035997PH (CO): $1,791.04 (VPIP: 55.84, PFR: 1.30, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 165)

PLR_2567185RX posts SB $10.00, Hero posts BB $20.00

Pre Flop: (pot: $30.00) Hero has K Q

fold, fold, PLR_8035997PH calls $20.00, fold, PLR_2567185RX calls $10.00, Hero raises to $120.00, PLR_8035997PH calls $100.00, fold

Flop: ($260.00, 2 players) 2 K 5
Hero bets $130.00, PLR_8035997PH calls $130.00

Turn: ($520.00, 2 players) 4
Hero bets $260.00, PLR_8035997PH calls $260.00

River: ($1,040.00, 2 players) 8
Hero bets $480.00, PLR_8035997PH raises to $1,281.04 and is all-in


Annoying spot vs. fish that's bothering me. I think river is a clear v-bet against a 55/1 and it would be results-oriented to think otherwise, but not sure what to do when he shoves.
He's playing 56/1/0 over 165 hands. My PT4 autonotes include:

[P] Cold Called 2Bet In Position {QQ,88-99,A7s-A8s,KJs,K2s,Q5s,T7s,AKo,A9o,KQo,QJo,65o} (15)
[P] Limp and called a raise {TT,AJs,A8s,K9s-KTs,T2s,84s,76s,63s,52s,42s,AJo-AQo,A5o-A7o,A2o,QTo+,JTo,T9o,65o} (27)
[F] Called flop cbet with weak hand - no draw (9)
[T] Played turn draw aggressively (4)
[R] Bet river thin out of position (8)

Overall total loose passive whale, so generally wouldn't expect a lot of bluffing from him. OTOH I had been hammering him with isos and cbets so I think it's possible he could get frustrated.

Some of my thoughts were...:

- 55% vpip + [F] Called flop cbet with weak hand - no draw (9) means he prob gets to river with a bunch of Ad combos
- he seemed very call happy generally and I thought I remembered him just calling two pair otr in a spot where he could prob xr in another hand. I thought this meant he might not shove flushes <nut flushes otr and we block 2nd nf.
- although unlikely, he might fastplay some flushes ott
- getting a pretty good price
- doesn't seem like player type to bluff...how heavily do we weight this factor?

a possible break-even point

You play at WAY higher limits on Ignition than I do, but typically when you see someone this passive go nuts on the river like that, he has something much better than TPGK. Find the fold button and then berate him in chat.

This is a hand doesn't require that much analysis: a very passive guy limped, called pre, called OTF, called OTT and recided to raise you OTR. Usually these guys don't do it as a bluff or with a worse hand(he is always calling his worse made hands and isn't turning any of them into a bluff), so you can easily fold the river.

Now there are some adjustments you could make to maximize profit vs this guy, which are: betting smaller when you don't hit(like 33%-50%), bigger when you hit, like 75%-100%, since this guy is inelastic when calling, he either is happy with his hand and wants to see showdown or will fold OTF, also overbetting a lot for value when you have 2-pair+, specially deep, trying to play for stacks.

In that hand, You should bet bigger OTF, make it around 75%(I personally like making it 90% vs this kind of fish), OTT make it 75% and ship most rivers, no need to be afraid of the flush, he is never folding a worse K, and sometimes not folding even midpairs. So it's better for you to be betting yourself for value and making sure the money always gets in. BTW, these are all bet-folds, even though you're happy by jamming the river, if you get raised OTT, you should fold.

Don't level yourself here, fold.

fold

ah goddamit. ok. . cheers guys.

Just to get more out of this thread what's the worst hand we're calling with here? I know the move is super exploitable by folding a pretty high amount, but curious what people thought.

Sent from my SM-G900R4 using Tapatalk

sets and K8, the reasoning behind it is that he could be doing it with any 2-pair, and villain has way more possible 2-pairs than we have, so even though we lose to flushes/straights, he could be valuebetting worse.

But if we're deeper and he jams overbetting the pot, it's fine to bet-fold sets/2-pair and only call with flushes.

if we're deeper, these villains usually min-raise with 2-pairs or just call, they're super afraid of flushes. Most of those guys play with play money and the metagame in those games is just to limp, try to hit a flush/straight/set and stack people off.

Agree in general with your analysis of how to play these player types. And yeah definitely b/f is usually the way to go on all streets. But how do you conclude that 75-90% is the optimal bet sizing otf?? I don't agree at all that fish are inelastic to sizing. I want him to call all his random broadway cards, Ax, and A4/A3 otf. 75-90% is too large for accomplishing this except for if V is a major whale. 55/1 stats doesn't mean he stations unmade hands postflop when facing large bet sizes. On K52 blocking top pair and a fd I think a smaller size is warranted -- globally his range is very weak. I can understand going bigger ott with the reasoning that he's inelastic to sizing with his AXdx hands, which is a decent portion of his range.

Flush

These guys are usually playing drunk and play for fun, they think you're bluffing for some reason and never fold. It's good to go super exploitative vs them, but the hard thing is that if you're wrong, you will get punished for doing that. As an example, some fish like calling pre, but folding a lot post, like even top pairs, so taking that approach vs them is usually bad because you will be valueowning yourself.

But if the villain is really a station(and by your info, it strongly suggests that he is), then if you don't go for max value, someone else will and will take his money. You don't need to be reasonable vs these massive whales, they aren't thinking players.

Just some examples of that, I don't know how whales treat their money where you play(like getting scared on higher stakes), but using big sizes is usually the way to go vs those guys. Can someone from small/midstakes confirm that those massive whales still call overbets with TP even in higher stakes?



PokerStars - $0.25 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BTN: 20 BB (VPIP: 29.41, PFR: 14.71, 3Bet Preflop: 11.11, Hands: 34)
SB: 114.68 BB (VPIP: 26.32, PFR: 15.79, 3Bet Preflop: 8.70, Hands: 59)
Hero (BB): 127.28 BB
UTG: 73.64 BB (VPIP: -, PFR: -, 3Bet Preflop: -, Hands: 1)
MP: 164.92 BB (VPIP: 21.20, PFR: 16.52, 3Bet Preflop: 3.70, Hands: 1,943)
CO: 412.72 BB (VPIP: 29.45, PFR: 25.21, 3Bet Preflop: 9.49, Hands: 484)

SB posts SB 0.4 BB, Hero posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.4 BB) Hero has T Q

UTG calls 1 BB, fold, fold, fold, fold, Hero checks

Flop: (2.4 BB, 2 players) T Q 8
Hero bets 20 BB, UTG calls 20 BB

Turn: (42.4 BB, 2 players) 3
Hero bets 80 BB, UTG calls 52.64 BB and is all-in

River: (147.68 BB, 2 players) 9




PokerStars - $0.25 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BTN: 101 BB (VPIP: 28.94, PFR: 20.60, 3Bet Preflop: 11.36, Hands: 445)
SB: 62.12 BB (VPIP: 20.90, PFR: 8.96, 3Bet Preflop: 4.35, Hands: 69)
BB: 99.8 BB (VPIP: 66.67, PFR: 55.56, 3Bet Preflop: 100.00, Hands: 9)
Hero (UTG): 102.88 BB
MP: 234.2 BB (VPIP: 17.84, PFR: 14.80, 3Bet Preflop: 6.13, Hands: 539)
CO: 147.4 BB (VPIP: 45.45, PFR: 31.82, 3Bet Preflop: 9.09, Hands: 22)

SB posts SB 0.4 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.4 BB) Hero has Q Q

Hero raises to 2.32 BB, fold, CO calls 2.32 BB, fold, fold, BB calls 1.32 BB

Flop: (7.36 BB, 3 players) 4 7 7
BB checks, Hero bets 6.32 BB, CO calls 6.32 BB, fold

Turn: (20 BB, 2 players) 7
Hero bets 17.2 BB, CO calls 17.2 BB

River: (54.4 BB, 2 players) 5
Hero bets 46.76 BB, CO calls 46.76 BB



PokerStars - $0.16 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BTN: 113.5 BB (VPIP: 54.35, PFR: 4.35, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 47)
SB: 101.5 BB (VPIP: 19.72, PFR: 14.34, 3Bet Preflop: 4.83, Hands: 1,875)
Hero (BB): 198.44 BB
UTG: 65.25 BB (VPIP: 15.38, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 53)
MP: 100 BB (VPIP: 23.03, PFR: 20.12, 3Bet Preflop: 6.94, Hands: 171)
CO: 272.81 BB (VPIP: 23.70, PFR: 17.25, 3Bet Preflop: 9.47, Hands: 1,079)

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, Hero posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has 8 5

fold, fold, fold, BTN calls 1 BB, fold, Hero checks

Flop: (2.5 BB, 2 players) A J 6
Hero bets 21 BB, BTN calls 21 BB

Turn: (44.5 BB, 2 players) 2
Hero bets 117 BB, BTN calls 91.5 BB and is all-in

River: (227.5 BB, 2 players) 3

lolwut

Then proceeds to post 3 hands where fish never folds. Typo?

Read all the post, this is another kind of fish, which makes the approach I'm suggesting really bad, also those are which I was talking about with you in your stream.

Basically there are 3 types of fish(ofc, each fish plays his way, some are more spewy/nitty than others, but this kind of generalization is only to simplify things).

The maniac: which are fish that are likely to put aggression with any kind of hands, some maniacs like to bet-fold and raise-fold a lot, some are bet-call anything, vs them, if you take a more passive approach and let them bluff, you will be fine and get max value and won't get punished by doing that.

Stats are usually like 40-90/35-80/AF: 3+

The whale: This is the type of fish that we're discussing in this thread, they limp a lot pre-flop and if they like what they got OTF, they call, and will keep calling, when they have a good hand they may raise.

Stats are usually like 40-90/0-20/ AF: 1

The weaktight fish/semi-fish: Those guys limp a lot, usually less than the whale and fold a lot post-flop, it's normal to see guys like these with 80% fold to flop cbet and 70% fold to turn cbet, so their range OTR is usually really strong(or made with draws). Vs this kind of guy, the best strategy is to bluff a lot, fold to aggression and don't make thin river value bets. As an example, in that hand, if the guy were a weaktight fish, we should just check-fold the river, since he isn't bluffing, is rarely valuebetting worse and he won't call with worse.

Stats are usually like 20-40/0-5/ AF: 1

The weaktight fish are different from those other 2, they're slightly losing players, not that they're decent, but they aren't donating tons of stacks out of nowhere, they sometimes lose even at a lower pace than a bad reg. Also the tough thing is that sometimes weaktight fish can be disguised as whales, so if you're using that super exploitative approach I suggested and get confused with which type of fish you're dealing with, it could be terrible.

How high of a flush, or any flush?

Checking flop with this combo everytime fwiw. Always folding river.

any flush

what a trivial fold vs loose passive whale