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Old 07-23-2012, 10:24 AM   #1
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Flopped top set. Overplayed?

Im new so take it easy on me please, I dont know if 100/200 is the correct forum for this please correct me if I am wrong. Im going to do my best to describe the hand and my reasoning for doing what I did and let me know if my lines of thinking are on par with Good ABC poker or tell me Im a complete donkey either way dont matter, I can take it..

Ok, So $1-$2 NL live play

Im on the table for about 1 hour, Im on the button full ring table. I havent played too many hands thus far, but took a stab at a few pots and took them down with semi bluffs (flopped middle button) so Im ahead about $100 at this point.

So here is the hand and once again correct me if I post it wrong;

Hero: about $300 in chips OTB
Villian about $300 in chips MP

We get about 4 limpers, gets to me.
Hero OTB
J
J

Raise $10

Folds to the first MP player ( guy has not entered many pots at this point so seems to be playing fairly conservative)

Villain: RR to $25
So Im figuring him for a fairly decent hand T-T through AK, not really worried about KK AA cause I figured he would have raised it up a bit more than $15 with those holdings.

Hero: Calls

Everyone folds to me and I call the extra $15 with the strategy to push him a bit on the flop and folding if I encountered any resistance if I didnt hit a monster on the flop. I did not want to 3 bet with J J and dont think I wanted to represent that type of range or loose 3 betting and I knew I was most likely behind. (I figured the pot odds as this, 10$ from limpers and BB's, $10 from me, $25 from villian for a $45 pot giving me 3 to 1 pot odds)

Ok so flop comes:

7
8
J

So now we got some issues here...I flop top set with a flush draw and straight draw on the board and this is going through my mind ( How the hell do I play this hand without getting sucked out on but extract value...Im fairly sure he did not RR with 9 T , but I am worried about K A at this point, but I still figured him for an overpair.)

Villain: Raises $25 ( about 50% of the pot which I was expecting
Hero: RR to $75
(making the pot $160 so keeping his pot odds to about 3 to 1) My reasoning for the bet was this: I wanted to make the most money off my hand without scaring him off and figured if I raised more, he would pretty much know the strength of my hand, but figured he would view a $50 raise as a semi bluff and put me on a draw or JK-JA.

Villain: snap calls
Ok, at this point Im thinking big pair or nut flush draw for his hand. Middle to bottom set would be nice too, but based on his play and PFR, not so much of an issue.Either way, he is in for 1/3 of his stack at this point and Im fairly sure if a safe card comes on the turn he is gonna either push of raise a fair amount.

Now let me interject here for a second and give you some back ground of the hand right before this. He saw me play the hand right before this fairly aggressively when I flopped middle pair and re-raised from the cut off after a PFR. When the villain folded, I made a comment to the effect of "I was betting air"..Now I dont know if he bought into the BS i was trying to sell my making that comment, but I was fairly sure I was behind on that particular hand and stole the pot. So Im thinking he would see my RR at this point as a bluff and call no matter what I put up there(I know I probably think I am better than I actually am at this point and Im ok with you guys telling me that and I can LOL@myself

So the turn comes:
2

Giving a board of
7
8
J
2

Villain: waits about 10 seconds and R $90 making the pot about $300
Hero: I wait 10-20 seconds, count off $90, then restack it and shove all in. My theory here is "get it all in while Im good" if I get flushed I get flushed..And was sure he was going to shove anyhow, and wanted to shove first while I was good cause if a hit on the river, I would have had a little more of a decision to make.
Villain:waits about 1 minute or so, and calls.

How was my play and how was my reasoning?
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Old 07-23-2012, 12:09 PM   #2
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Re: Flopped top set. Overplayed?

I'd iso much larger pre, to like $15-20.

nitpicking here but he already 3bet, so you can't 3bet.

Raise larger on the flop and rep more of a draw makes more sense to me, but I think some live newb would bet much larger with overpairs on that board texture. So, either A) he doesn't have an overpair at all and probably isn't calling a flop raise and if he is, he has a pretty weakish hand (QQ on that board is weak fwiw). or B) he does have a hand like KK+ and is betting smaller because he's afraid of the texture and doesn't want to commit too much.

I'd still raise and hope he calls light with some sort of pair, and it gets value from the other players in the hand as well.

Your biggest mistake is taking time to count all of your chips, acting like you may be folding or calling and then end up raising all of the sudden. WEAK MEANS STRONG MUCH? lol. Don't put on this act and then shove; I'd muck like everything in his spot that's worse than JJ.

In terms of just your line, you did everything fine; I don't know what you're asking about? You lose to one hand, and he LRR'd so it'd be super unlikely he has 9T. Or, you shoved and he folded and you're wondering if you could have gotten more money by calling his bet. If it's just you two HU to turn, then yeah I'd call turn and wouldn't be at all concerned about him having any draws besides a 4-out one with TT and maybe AKcc. Those combos are only a smaller part of his range and possibly the only ones that will call a raise; meanwhile the rest of his range will likely fold to a turn raise so don't raise.
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Old 07-23-2012, 12:13 PM   #3
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Re: Flopped top set. Overplayed?

you have the second nuts against a bad player keep potting it
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Old 07-23-2012, 03:00 PM   #4
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Re: Flopped top set. Overplayed?

Ill Answer in your quote so as you can dissect my thinking and if it was within the winning thinking of poker:

Quote:
Originally Posted by HollywoodHogan View Post
I'd iso much larger pre, to like $15-20.
So you would go $15-20 with JJ in the cut off? Ill give it a shot next time, but I dont like getting to involved in a pot with JJ pre flop, but I did have position. Plus I have been trying to make my bet amounts consistent but vary them from 10-25 and never try to do a set amount per specific hand. So I might bet $15 with AK one time, or 3 times in a row, then next time lead out with $25 with AK...

Quote:
Originally Posted by HollywoodHogan View Post
nitpicking here but he already 3bet, so you can't 3bet.
Yeah, my bad, I said Im sort of a newb myself..So 4 bet?

Quote:
Originally Posted by HollywoodHogan View Post
Raise larger on the flop and rep more of a draw makes more sense to me, but I think some live newb would bet much larger with overpairs on that board texture.
Well, I was trying to get him to call me and not chase him out of the pot, while protecting my set in the event I was busted, I was thinking he was overpair, QQ, or AK perhaps and wanted him to think I was chasing the flush or had JA

Quote:
Originally Posted by HollywoodHogan View Post
So, either A) he doesn't have an overpair at all and probably isn't calling a flop raise and if he is, he has a pretty weakish hand (QQ on that board is weak fwiw). or B) he does have a hand like KK+ and is betting smaller because he's afraid of the texture and doesn't want to commit too much.
Without spoiling it, your along the right lines of thinking, but he did call my RR so I sort of assumed he was stronger than what was on the board and put me chasing the flush, or bluffing the straight.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HollywoodHogan View Post
I'd still raise and hope he calls light with some sort of pair, and it gets value from the other players in the hand as well.
Well we were heads up at the flop so getting value from everyone else was null and void. My main goal was getting the rest of his chips in the pot while I was sure I was ahead.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HollywoodHogan View Post
Your biggest mistake is taking time to count all of your chips, acting like you may be folding or calling and then end up raising all of the sudden. WEAK MEANS STRONG MUCH? lol. Don't put on this act and then shove; I'd muck like everything in his spot that's worse than JJ.
Well I never acted like I was folding, I just was gauging his reaction when I counted out my chips to call his bet, and thinking of a good sized bet that would show dominance while I still had it. I was also realizing that his 90 bet left something like $100 behind him, and I wanted to get him in before the river. Cause Honestly, Im not a good enough player to know what to do if a scary card came on the river...Also I knew he was gonna call me by the way he was looking at me with such confidence. He honestly had no clue I had JJ. FWIW he did end up calling me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HollywoodHogan View Post
In terms of just your line, you did everything fine; I don't know what you're asking about? You lose to one hand, and he LRR'd so it'd be super unlikely he has 9T. Or, you shoved and he folded and you're wondering if you could have gotten more money by calling his bet. If it's just you two HU to turn, then yeah I'd call turn and wouldn't be at all concerned about him having any draws besides a 4-out one with TT and maybe AKcc. Those combos are only a smaller part of his range and possibly the only ones that will call a raise; meanwhile the rest of his range will likely fold to a turn raise so don't raise.
Well he called my turn raise and came out firing his 3rd barrel so It was apparent he either felt I was bluffing, or felt he was still ahead of me and didnt really read my hand properly.

My question is do you think I
A) played the hand properly to extract maximum value?
B) Disguised my hand effectively with my betting (my comments and gestures aside, thats another leak Im working on..)
C) do you think I gave him proper pod odds to call or fold in that situation?
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