Cold4bet shove TT, thoughts? - Small Stakes Pot Limit and No Limit

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Cold4bet shove TT, thoughts?

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05-05-2009 , 09:21 PM

dfhwy7856

Guest

Posts: n/a

$1/$2 No Limit Holdem
4 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
CO ($89.30)
BTN ($225.00)
SB ($268.00)
Hero (BB) ($644.00)

Pre-flop: ($3, 4 players) Hero is BB T

CO raises to $6, BTN raises to $28, 1 fold, Hero goes all-in $644

CO is a 40/22 idiot, saw him min4bet-call QTs pre earlier. Button is a 45/20 donk, 3bet button 33% over 42 hands.

05-05-2009 , 09:25 PM

trusti

newbie

Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 41

looks good

05-05-2009 , 09:28 PM

Golfdish

old hand

Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 1,838

really dont like. BTN's 28 3bet imo is much stronger than 20, and as a said in the AQ thread, i like 4bet/calling more here if you are trying to get it in. Giving people a chance to spazz is always gonna be better than letting them play perfectly against our range. Also you can never 4bet bluff (small) in this spot if you are shoving stuff like TT

05-05-2009 , 09:35 PM

SilvioDante

old hand

Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 1,235

I actually think BTNs range gets wider with a 28 bet than a 20. If he 3bets to 20 and the fish calls the pot will be 43 and they will have 70 behind wich will be a bit awkward to play with.

If he makes its 28 the pot will be 59 abd they will have 62 behind and he can eaisly shove/call pretty much any flop.

05-05-2009 , 09:35 PM

Mr. Ratface

adept

Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 872

Given your reads on the players I would be happy to get it in here with tens but I would just 4bet and call.

05-05-2009 , 09:37 PM

SilvioDante

old hand

Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 1,235

Just read that BTN was a 45/20 donk and he probably doesnt think that deep about the situation.

05-05-2009 , 09:37 PM

dfhwy7856

Guest

Posts: n/a

Yeah, being totally honest I really didn't have any reason for shoving instead of 4betting small besides the fact that I didn't know if button ever 5bet shoves light and I didn't want my 4bet to get flatted when I'm oop with this hand (there will be an overcard in a huge pot like always).

05-05-2009 , 09:44 PM

shipit2kg

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 4,837

i like

05-05-2009 , 09:47 PM

Skleice

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 4,277

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaGrunt

Sounds like you just solved the debate. Shove is better vs donks, 4bet small better vs regs.

05-05-2009 , 09:47 PM

#10

Golfdish

old hand

Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 1,838

Quote:

Originally Posted by SilvioDante

Would you rather be comitted vs a shortie with 72o or AKs? He 3bets his bluffs smaller than his value hands, with the possible exception of a nut hand like AA.

05-06-2009 , 06:24 AM

#11

SilvioDante

old hand

Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 1,235

I dont think he 3betsbluffs a shortie with 27o

05-06-2009 , 06:26 AM

#12

Molon Lave

banned

Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 470

I prefer to 4bet and get it in, giving one of them the chance to do something stupid.

05-06-2009 , 10:59 AM

#13

clowntable

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 45,557

Quote:

Originally Posted by SilvioDante

I dont think he 3betsbluffs a shortie with 27o

This argument cuts both ways. Our range is increased in strength by the fact that the shorty is in the hand (at least I'd expect most people to think on this level).

05-06-2009 , 11:13 AM

#14

durkadurka33

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 8,709

I prefer 4bet/call than shoving. Shoving gets it in vs a tighter range.

05-08-2009 , 10:38 PM

#15

Golfdish

old hand

Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 1,838

Party Poker $200.00 No Limit Hold'em - 4 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

SB: $201.60
Hero (BB): $438.51
CO: $138.99
BTN: $206.00

Pre Flop: ($3.00) Hero is BB with T

1 fold, BTN raises to $6, SB raises to $22, Hero raises to $48, 1 fold, SB raises to $201.60, Hero calls $153.60

Flop: ($409.20) 6

(2 players)

Turn: ($409.20) Q

(2 players)

River: ($409.20) A

(2 players)

Spoiler:

And this my friends, is why we cold 4bet TT in this spot instead of shoving.

05-08-2009 , 10:39 PM

#16

dfhwy7856

Guest

Posts: n/a

villain dependant, wouldn't you say?

05-08-2009 , 11:10 PM

#17

Golfdish

old hand

Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 1,838

not at all,
not everyone is gonna shove J9s here, but not giving them the opportunity to shove it is a leak.

05-09-2009 , 12:29 AM

#18

Al_Money

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 4,393

totally agree with golfdish.

05-09-2009 , 04:45 AM

#19

JimmyVulmer

veteran

Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 2,501

Quote:

Originally Posted by Golfdish

not at all,
not everyone is gonna shove J9s here, but not giving them the opportunity to shove it is a leak.

It's still risky to 4bet small with a hand like this oop vs ******s. There's nothing more tilty when you 4bet he coldcalls with A4s or QTo and outflops you.

05-09-2009 , 04:55 AM

#20

Fonkey123

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Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 12,339

Quote:

Originally Posted by JimmyVulmer

It's still risky to 4bet small with a hand like this oop vs ******s. There's nothing more tilty when you 4bet he coldcalls with A4s or QTo and outflops you.

Yeah, they're gonna own me by calling my cold 4 bets with QToff!!!

05-09-2009 , 05:02 AM

#21

JimmyVulmer

veteran

Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 2,501

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fonkey123

Yeah, they're gonna own me by calling my cold 4 bets with QToff!!!

Like you have a clue oop with TT if the flop comes Q85 in a 4bet pot, and it's one of the more friendly flops.

05-09-2009 , 05:07 AM

#22

Fonkey123

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Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 12,339

Quote:

Originally Posted by JimmyVulmer

Like you have a clue oop with TT if the flop comes Q85 in a 4bet pot, and it's one of the more friendly flops.

Yeah, I'm wouldn't be sure how to count all the hundos with either CRAI'ing or bet/calling.

05-09-2009 , 05:13 AM

#23

JimmyVulmer

veteran

Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 2,501

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fonkey123

Yeah, I'm wouldn't be sure how to count all the hundos with either CRAI'ing or bet/calling and hoping.

fyp

05-09-2009 , 05:29 AM

#24

Fonkey123

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Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 12,339

Quote:

Originally Posted by JimmyVulmer

fyp

This is getting a little inane. When I 3 bet someone light I am also HOPING they don't have aces... when I barrel I am HOPING they don't have a straight...when I c/r flops I am HOPING they don't have a set etc.

05-09-2009 , 06:08 AM

#25

JimmyVulmer

veteran

Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 2,501

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fonkey123

I never said that it's not great that they flat 4bets with QTo or other junk. I said that there is a higher risk of getting flatted if you 4bet an idiot and in fact TT can be easily outflopped by a huge number of hands thus I think it's better to get it in preflop oop than inducing because it might not work and we can find ourselves in a ****ty spot.

If villain is a 5bettard then 4betting is obviously better I agree.

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