I have a question about calling 3bets in and out of position with medium and small pocket pairs > 88 and below. I find I lose money here when I check my HUD. My strategy is to always call when I have 20 to 1 implied odds. Aswell in pots where there are two opponents for example: 13bb 3bet from bb, mp calls, I call 10bbs in BU. And in pots where there is 1 opponent, for example. I raise 3bb, Bb 3bets to 0,9 cents and we have both 120bbs behind.
What is your strategy here?

What stakes do you play and how much is rake?

That's probably going to chew up any EV you have on smaller pairs (66 and less). I would be surprised if 77-88 weren't at least break even.

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..every time u fold u lose 100bb x open raise size..now check your reports,if the number(bbs\100) that u see is below that,u arent actually losing

I'm playing 10nl zoom. And I filtered for. "I am open raiser" and "someone raised preflop"

In my humble opinion that is the down side of zoom, you do not know how often this guy is 3 betting because as after each hand your both off to another table. So with out much of a read how can you call a 3 bet with a small PP! Some guy on poker news posted an article about small PP in Zoom he says to open limp and call a raise, fold if you miss. For me open limp is an evil but maybe he has a point.

HUDs keep that data though so even though you go to other tables, you tend to play a lot of hands together. Therefore should have reasonable stats on 3bet percentage


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That's not true because we have other options such as open folding or opening another size. The only time you should make plays that have a negative expectation is in the blinds where we're forced to bet.

you suggest open folding pps 88-22?.. Or use raise size other than standard?..

I'm just saying your logic on this particular situation is flawed. Even if you call a 3 bet and make more money than the raise you abandon in the pot if you still lose money you have a better strategic option which is folding outright because 0 > a negative number.

However it's not that easy because there are other outcomes than you getting 3 bet so your overall EV may be positive from the times you open and steal the blinds, you open and only get called, etc. It's possible only in the situation where we get 3 bet we lose bb's but we're more than compensated when we reach those other strategic outcomes.

The only time it is ALWAYS advantageous to call when we have a negative expectation is when we are a blind which is a forced bet. In those situations we had to put in the money, but in all other positions we always have the option to fold and lose nothing.

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oook...now read the thread title

Idk what you mean. I was simply responding to your idea that always calling when it's "less negative EV" than folding is an incorrect idea because we always have the option to fold except from the blinds. So calling a 3 bet when it's -EV is always a bad play it's just less bad than folding in the scenario you described.

I've already given my response to OP. At 10nl I would muck 22-66 due to rake and wouldn't be surprised if 77-88 was at least break even. I would muck 22-66 outright from certain positions or any position but the blinds if the pot was opened. A bunch of factors go into this though stack depth, table and player tendencies, etc.It's hard to give any general rule about preflop other than bet/raise AA/KK pretty much always.

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less bad is better than bad...common sense

I really don't know what to say here. Like I said bad is bad if there is actually a good option.

I mean if you open 22 in the cutoff for 2.5bb and get 3 bet by the button if you fold you lose 2.5 bb immediately, if you call you lose 1.5 bb, and if would have never opened to begin with you lose 0bb which is the best option?

This is all hypothetical and I just pulled numbers out of thin air forn illustrative purposes, but you'd have to be making more than 1.5bb when you steal the blinds and or only get called to make calling the 3 bet = folding outright.

That's obviously wrong. We don't get 3bet every time. With your logic we could only open hands that can profitable call a 3bet, which is wrong.

Go back several posts I already pointed this out.

My main objective was to point out the flaw in the logic "if you lose less by calling than the size of your raise you should fold" mostly because it becomes easy to misapply this logic by ignoring the option to fold outright.

KoalaBeer. I don't want to sidetrack much from the discussion but I will give you some hints on how to think about your situation.

First the implied odds number you are using might not be accurate - and there are several reasons for that (some that you control and some that are out of your control - your table/villian/streets of betting you get when you hit, if your hand will still be the best hand on the river etc.).

Second you need to do some position analysis. Because you cannot lump playing a hand a certain way from early position with that being played from late position. Position changes a lot of probabilities, some concerned with stealing blinds outright.

Third, the reasons for unprofitably might be more than you might have considered. Decision trees will be involved.

Finally I would advice you that math don't lie. If you are not able to profitably play a 3 bet by calling with a small PP then you might want to consider always folding to 3 bet, because not losing $s is always a better option than playing it a certain way (calling a 3bet) and end up losing on that part of the decision tree.

IP call if deep. OOP calling 77-JJ usually as default. Position, stack sizes, player tendencies all play into your decision and are factors you make in game before calling the 3bet or not.

Being readless in Zoom if you don't have stats, Id call the higher pairs 55+ and dump the lower ones to min the times you are set v set in 3 way pot since you're calling even though you know its a losing spot for you at the moment.

Try closing down your calling range a bit loser in pos and tighter out of,

sounds simple but saving bb's here and there make a HUGE change to your w/r