Ok. I will have to take this to heart :-). I'd rather be humbled here than at the tables.

No wonder I don't see people like like me on twitch. Well, I have to say this: somehow I will have to reconcile what my limited perceptions are telling me vs. what every experienced person has been saying to me.

With that being said, I will also have to learn some of it the hard way. Luckily, I am only ever playing with money that I can afford to lose, so at least I am not going to lose meaningful money and I am not ever going to make a living at poker. I am rec'

Also:
And if I am ever at the tables, feel free to take all the shots at me to exploit my mistakes. It is the only honest way to play the game; and it may be the only way I will learn some of what you are truly saying. In the mean time, I will be cracking the books and watching vids! Thx!
!

Thank you for this.

LT.

Agree with most of what you have said jdog. One thing i will add to this post is that great players can play loose preflop, because they are great post flop players, and can navigate well on later streets. Bottom line is that things are so much more complex post flop than pre. Being a good aggressive post flop player is infinitely harder than pre.

Longtang: much props to your ability to take criticism, the ability to be completely objective and evaluate yourself is for sure one of the most important things to becoming a great poker player. That being said, the people here are spot on. How long have you been playing? Every new player whose been grinding for a little while just has NO IDEA what it means to be actually solid, and its just natural for them to wayyy over-estimate their abilities. We all know this player, and this player was or is us, at some point or another in our career. This is the stage you are in. You've read some books, you know what it sounds like to be a good player, you may of had some decent results. But you have no idea how and when to actually apply the knowledge youve obtained, mainly, because as the saying goes....experience is the best teacher. Having a little bit of knowledge is a very dangerous thing. BUT, theres good news! You seem to be self aware and open minded...which is everything. Most people are oblivious, and freak out if you tell them theyre terrible...and they just never have a shot in the long term...especially in this poker climate.

As far as your actual play/strategy goes...jdog is pretty on point. So you know in order to be a great player, you need to know how to play a LAGGY style. But you certainly dont know when or where to employ this strategy. Because i can tell you that micro stakes on bovada might be the best example of where you shouldnt be employing an all-out laggy style, 4 betting 10J, like ever. Everything on bovada is population tendencies...you establish no meta game. No meta game means there is no point to playing the style in which you think is correct. The reason you balance your ranges, make certain bluffs, and steer off the road of fully exploitative play is due to meta game and your opponents around you adjusting. There is none of that going on here, and while the style your trying to employ might work under the right conditions, these arent it. This is where you employ a solid taggy strategy while being heavily exploitative, even if it leaves you open for the occasional spot where you are outplayed (something that will rarely rarely happen at that low a level if you are indeed a good player).

Jdog is also absolutely right in the sense that you need to rework everything. A good player isnt just simply some "super aggro stud" whose making fancy plays left and right. A good player knows how to play every style well, and knows when and how to employ these different strategies based on game conditions. You need to go back to the drawing board and get a good foundation of the solid TAG style, which luckily, is exactly what you need to be using for this level anyway. You are trying to sprint before you can crawl. Learn the TAG game, then delve into more laggy strategies when you have a better foundation.

Here's an easy way to identify if your making the proper adjustments needed for low level bovada zone: You will rarely feel like your phil ivey. You will rarely be excited. You will not be 4 betting 10J pre OOP. You will never feel too dumb. These are easy games versus easy opponents where your decisions should never be too difficult.

Yeah i think your last point is very appropriate. Proper play at the microstakes is boring and relatively easy! If someone would have told me this years ago it would have saved me so much money. Lol

Yep...for sure a huge misconception by a huge amount of rec players...and we like this.

Also Jdog, you said its not possible to have an edge pre, but not post. I actually disagree here, i think learning optimal preflop strategy is pretty straightforward for the most part in comparison to what optimal postlop play looks like. I do think its completely plausible, and common, to have someone have a solid grasp of the inner workings of pre flop play, and be far less efficient after the flop. Without to much brainstorming, i'm assuming the best example of this would be a solid TAG player with good preflop numbers, who is far too nitty on postflop streets.

Yeah i agree. I think my point was specifically meant for that example, but i didn't phrase it correctly. The way he described it basically told me he thought he was just winning pre (playing a bad strategy) and was just playing bad postflop. In actuality it was bad pre flop play that caused bad posflop play

Jdog: and friends:

Thank you so much! I esp. appreciate all of you taking the time to help me improve and that is the real reason I am here. So, I truly truly don't mind all your help.

Looking at myself objectively, I do now know that I had misconceptions.

At the same time, I want to also say that I do believe I am making fast progress.

I want to show you a hand where, I played decently post flop.

And Please hear my analysis and my rationale for my line:

Here is the hand:
https://youtu.be/c07i3Y6nYVM


Standard call with TJ in position at the CO. Flop top pair. I min-raised to clear out the equity (ie make the people behind me fold). I didn't expect the
original raiser to go out.

At the turn: I had two options: check my bluff catcher, or bet my equity of my straight draw. I went with the betting equity line because if I make my straight, I am set up to stack this guy who is most likely overvaluing his AJ.

[The other line would have been to check and call if I don't make my straight; or bet a elastic amount (say 3/4 pot) when I make my straight]

Unfortunately, with the line I took, when I didn't make my straight, I blew myself out of the pot. [Can you guys give me your opinions? I feel that as played, it wasn't the worst line. But, I am really open and interested to hear rationales for the other lines.]

The way I see it: I took a risk for a stack, but I lost it when this guy way overvalued his AJ. I think it is 80% chance he held AJ.

The only hands I can see villain having:
1. a straight.
2. a busted straight : stone cold bluff polarized range bet.
3. AJ [99% it is AJ as played, If it is AJ, this guy is easy picking for getting stacked!]

p.s.: i have been making it a favorite specialty to stack players like this villain, with some good success! I stacked two guys this way today with a wheel, and with a disguised straight. Noobs have real trouble recognizing straights. In the wheel hand, I just had 2,5; and the villain had A6; he keeps on betting into me and I make a riv. shove oop. he calls. :- ) 25NL Zone! :- ) love it.

The real cool thing about wheels is that some chump holds an overvalued Ace and you hold garbage. That is the best situation for stacking people. That is why I don't mind playing 2,5 or 23 or 42. suited > unsuited. FOR THE RIGHT CHEAP pre FLOP PRICE.

cheers.

Thx!

I will know his hole card in 24 hours!

cheers.


In order of preference:

1. 45, 34, 23 (suited)
2. 35, 24, (Suited)
3. 25, suited

Then, I may or may not play unsuited . . . Maybe 45 unsuited and 34 unsuited, if the price is good.

So i wasn't able to see your hand play on my phone. You may want to copy/paste the hand history in txt form.
Jto is not a standard call. You don't want to play that pf at all. You need to work on just playing

*premium hands pf (top 20%)
And widening that on the btn and co. But basically you need to scrap all those hands you mentioned unless on the btn and only to attempt to steal

This is a gross oversimplification i know, but you must tighten up substantially pf to start

I think the "premium hand" thing. . . I think we are way beyond ABC game here now. We are deep and we are in position. Please peruse at your leisure:

But, if you are on your phone, I really don't want you to miss the rationale of my turn bet. My rationale is that I bet out, with the idea that if I make the river straight, I am poised to stack this guy with AJ. But, if I missed my straight, I would check fold or check call (elastically. Might call for 1/3 or 1/2 pot. Most likely fold, though).

Of course, I did consider the alternate line: Check the turn and just be in call down mode (in an elastic fashion) when I miss my draw. I don't think that the Bluff catcher, JT in that spot is much of a hand to call his strong, likely, AJ hand.

Will you be able to consider all these nuisances with a limited screen real estate of a phone? Thx! Cheers.














cheers.

You need to post using a converter so it's in a format people can understand. Stack depth is important. Even if you are 200bb deep or more at 25 nl zone "abc poker" as you put it is really the only way to go.

Reread KSell11 post about not needing to make creative plays or feeling like "Ivey" as he puts it. It's very poignant

JD:

Can you clarify the procedure for converting HH?

I know that I need the HH converter to convert the hand from bovada to HEM format.

But, This means I have to wait 24 hours right? If I want to do it now, I can't, right?

I have to wait until the option for "open hand history" is available, right?

Anyways, can you please just watch the youtube video? All the information is there.

Otherwise, I will have to download the HH in 24 hours.

Cheers.

thx!

Here are the stacks:

Yeah you need to do it in 24 hrs. Just go on the beginner threads a quick google search will give you the info you need

Hello!
I've just returned to the poker world and I've been playing 5NL Zone on bovada. I have about 21k hands and I've gone from 10BI ($50) to 36BI ($180)

I also have a little blog going - http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/17...ovada-1491312/

Here are my comments on your comments.

1) player types

Sounds about right. I was predominately a full ring player so I'm not super familiar with what these ranges should be for 6 max but what you said sounds right.

2) stack sizes

Absolutely agree 100%. If somone has less than 50bb i'm targeting them.

3) Bet sizing and 3betting

I agree, 3bets get a lot of credit and you can exploit the fact nobody has stats on you.

-Flatting with premiums

I haven't done this much myself but it is something that could work. I get paid a lot with my monster hands so I haven't had the thought to try this.


I'm also looking for people to discuss hands with so pm me if you have a skype group.

You guys are overthinking it.

Here is my ATC (Any two cards) Super System

Twitch.com/kamotepoker

5nl, 3bb/100, 100k hands.

Building roll to get to 25nl.

You're welcome