Hi,

I was wandering if this play is standard? I'm not sure what villain is repping here? I have blockers to AA/QQ? Maybe pocket 88's for value? Maybe 56/67ss?
Thanks for any feedback!

Fold river, he has a straight.

Seems like villain can only have AA/QQ. snapfold.

could raise flop, could shove turn

Super standard. If you shove turn, he can get away from AK/AJs. Also, when you are at a pretty big range disadvantage, it makes sense for overall strategy to just keep calling down with your strongest hands since he's just going to keep barreling/bluffing a lot. Also if you jam AQ ott, your calling range ott becomes pretty weak, and he can probably jam any river for a +EV play.

Hand WP.

Shoving turn maximises value against AK,AJ unless villain is overfolding which we shouldn't assume readless.

We should raise turn at some frequency because reasons, regardless of being at a range disadvantage.

Shoving AQ ott at some % doesn't make our calling range too weak.

If AK and AJ are calling a turn shove they're calling a river shove as well. Minatorr is right, if we shove AQ on the turn what value do we have on the river? Calling is much better since we block most of the value villain is representing.

not this

That's a good point, AK and AJ are calling most rivers. They might check/fold on some connecting spades though.

If we shove AQ at some frequency ott we still have AQ, 88, 44 as value on the river.

I don't get why you think blocking villain's value range is a bad thing.
not that

It's a good thing obviously, it just meant it's more likely he's bluffing. Better to shove 88 and 44 when you don't block the Ax hands you want him to call with.

I'm fine with villain being way less likely to have AA or QQ and being more likely to have a bluff.

I do agree that blocking AK,AJ is not a good thing though.

lets assume river is a 3. Villain Shoves, you call and pick up his bluff.
would you still second guess your play ?
pretty standard call down. if you think he makes calling mistakes, sure you can raise the turn, also in case he has something like KJ of spades... but if you think he is more of an aggro player... let him barrel. unlucky river though.

I'm not being result oriented, I was just saying AQ should be shoved on the turn at some %. After checking in pio, it turns out it should be shoved a lot more often than I thought.

On top of being a gto play, I think it does exploit the nl50 player tendencies (they rarely bluff rivers from what I've seen)

Played very standard - sometimes you get unlucky. Imo raising turn loses so much value. There's a lot of semi bluffs that would stack off on the river and all the one pair hands that call the turn also call the river.


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Do you really think it's better for villain to face a shove ott than a call when he is holding a draw?

never a shove on the turn, you unblock spades, and spades that pick up gutshots. Call, call, call, super standard hand

Ok I really don't get this comment.

Firstly, you don't know villain has a draw. That said, in the unlikely event I could see villain's hole cards on the turn, I would still flat and let her continue bluffing river. If we raise we may as well show villain our cards. Sure sometimes they'll bluff catch with AK but we block that...

Yes we need to protect our own bluffs but sets are much better choices in case he calls down with Ax, but in general we should have relatively few raising combos here anyway - it's just a texture that the 3better has an advantage on. If we raise all or two pairs + what does it look like we have on river having called 3 streets?

This hand shouldn't be that complicated imo.


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I was refering to your comment : "Raising turn loses so much value. There's a lot of semi bluffs that would stack off on the river". Do you understand my comment now?

And if we raise all or two pairs + (which we shouldn't), our river range would like like Ax, Qx and some busted draws.

I'm not sure if sets make better value-raise candidates as they are less vulnerable than top2.

i don't think we can really determine heros raising range ott without knowing how wide hero opens and defends from MP vs BB 3bet. also we don't really know how wide villain is 3 betting in this spot. makes it really difficult to assume which hands villain might be betting flop and turn for value. against a lot of players at NL 50 AK is not even a value bet any more ott.

This. We just need to call down with this hand.

I think it's safe to not have a raising range OTT. We'll have to raise a lot of draws on this turn as well and we end up having a pretty weak call down range.

Villain might call AK/AJ like you said but I don't think that's a good enough reason to raise, stay balanced.

Well no, we have to raise turn fairly often. You're not just arguing with me here but with piosolver also

Cant imagine that solver can be that good. If it were, it'd cost more than it does. A lot more.

Shoving turns seems pretty bad vs regs, as regs probably barrel river quite frequently. Vs fish is whatever

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Yes, it's a well known fact. NL50 regs tend to overbluff a lot, especially on the river.