That is true. Though as I said the stat is probably not reliable over this sample.

Would you mind explaining why?

As ranges become wider all other ranges become wider... This is abundantly obvious when comparing "standard" full ring strategies to HU, or for example how you will be 3betting lighter in the BB vs BTN in 6-max than you would in MP vs UTG. Because ranges are wider, 3-betting ranges become wider for value and for bluffs, and because 3-betting ranges are wider, it becomes obvious that 4-betting ranges become wider as well.

Best explanation I can give, although I understand you weren't asking me, I agree with the fact that 4-betting ranges should be wider.

You know why, we're opening wider from the button,sb than from utg, mp, co.

Now if the 4bet range is villain's button 4bet range, the above is void.

Nope, this plays almost the same as 6 handed assuming ep, mp and co had folded.

Hand is played fine. we have worse to fold on flop.

I have to say I disagree with this.

You pay twice as many blinds vs 6max in the same amount of time assuming other factors that determine the length of a hand are the same. That should mean everyone should be trying to steal more frequently and this should widen ranges from all positions. That in turn should widen ranges for different betting actions.

We're still 4betting more often 3 handed though because we can't open from ep, mp, co. We're always opening from late position, hence 4betting wider.

If you're refering to button 4bet specifically, then you're right.

Yeah that was my point, we're not 4betting wider because it's 3handed. We're simply doing so as of the result of being btn/sb/bb twice as often.

A 3handed table should in theory play exactly the same as if it was a 6max table and folded to the button. I realize this is often not the case (because human fallacies of getting more 'involved' etc)

However, I think it's a misinforming to say "you should 4bet more because it's 3handed". That's just not true.

I didn't say "more" though, I said "wider". We aren't 4betting more frequently.


oh, I guess I did say "more" in my last post.

Just a question unrelated to the topic

In a fullring example

Wouldn't pairs have much more equity than overcards in an all in scenario due to card removal?

Ahh yes but we get to play all positions twice as often so I was obviously wrong looking at it that way.

Wider 4bet ranges implies more frequently, because they are correlated. Like just_grinding mentioned you pay blinds more frequently 3 handed than in 6max or FR, so it is not the same to play 3 handed the same way as folds to you in the button 6 handed or FR. You can't afford to wait in 3 handed for cards as much as you can in 6max or FR.

Yup, this makes no sense.

Whether 3 handed or on the btn 6 haned (after everyone folds to you), you open all your holdings that have a positive expectation, probably a neutral expectation. There's no waiting around for anything. What hands are going from a negative expectation to a positive expectation here? probably a couple of combos max.

Yeah it makes little difference. There's a thread with some maths done on it where card removal makes a minor difference to 3 handed rather than after utg, mp and co fold.

So yeah, you're in the blinds twice but also on the btn twice.

They imply we're opening more frequently, not 4betting more frequently.

Hand is well played.

Are you saying VPIP goes up but 4betting range is constant when we go from say FR to like headsup? I thought you mentioned 4betting range widens in an earlier thread.

No, vpip goes up and 4betting frequency remains the same more or less. 4bet ranges widens.

You are looking at one hand in isolation, I'm trying to look at it from the perspective of what happens per orbit over several orbits. I'm trying to say that in 3handed you pay 0.5BB per card you receive per orbit, while in 6max you pay 0.25BB per card you receive. Whether you choose to ignore that fact and play the same way 3handed on the button as in 6max when folded to you is upto you. In 3handed (like in last stages of tournaments) I tend to take more risks with the same card (say A7o) I get as in 6max/FR folded to button, because I know I will be hit with the BB the very next hand in 3-handed while in 6max/FR I might not need to because I get to see 3/6 free cards for the same blinds I'm paying per orbit.

I don't think the above makes sense either

Are you trying to suggest we should make -EV opens preflop 3 handed? :s

You also have to be cognizant of the fact that if you start with same stack 3handed vs FR you'll be blinded out rather quickly 3handed. So one might have to take more risks.

This is not really true bc you get to also play the more profitable position on the button with the same higher frequency as you having to play the blinds.

Yes, but the other advantageous positions like cutoff, hijack etc. are eliminated in 3handed play. Ratio of advantageous positions/disadvantageous positions has shrunk from FR to 3handed. So risk appetite has to go up accordingly.

They are not that advantageous bc you have to get more people to fold and still have the opportunity to play a pot oop.

Sure you can likely play more hands profitably 3 handed, but that's because you get a better opportunity to open them on the button vs the blinds instead of having another position call or open infront of you in a bigger game.

If you look at purely disadvantageous spots *the blinds* paying for cards and acting early, then in 3-handed you are put in that spot 2/3rds of the time, while in 6-handed you are put in that spot 1/3rd of the time.

Even if cutoff is not as advantageous as button, it is still advantageous to a certain degree while the disadvantage of the blinds is constant and there every orbit, and to a very high percentage when you get into 3-handed or headsup.

This thread has gone off on a tangent...

I will play more OTB 3 handed than 6 handed but not that much more. However, I will be 4b less 6 handed because there will be less "good" opportunities to do so overall - ie. less BTN/blind battles than 3 handed which happens every time you are on the button or in the BB facing a SB 3bet. So in short it makes a ton of sense that villains 4bet range in this spot is wider than his stats indicate.

Flat 4-bet is standard - don't see a reason to 5bet with this hand at all unless you've created the dynamic where you think villain will shove too many Ax hands as bluffs. We can never really 5b fold this hand because of this.

Post-flop is fine but I would also consider to some of the time min-r flop or flatting then donk turn small which I would balance with doing it with a certain % of my Jx hands.

The problem with just flatting flop and then checking turn is we give villains complete air ball bluffs 24% equity to realise by the river.

By raising (or donking turn) we also make villains life harder and his range harder to play. He may be prone to try and re-bluff us which is great when we have Jx and might give us more value with our Jx hands than just flatting flop where we then only get value from KK/AA on 1 more street.