Ty for replying.

1924/9455 hands=20% i get 3bet, -$4.5k(-240bb/100). So an avarage of 10% each blind i guess, which is slightly under optimal.

Action facing player:
Unopened pfr
CO=42bb/100
BT=18bb/100

1 limper pfr
CO=6bb/100(lol) - though iv been isolating 38% of hands, and i think 33% is more +EV for me, maybe less ^^
BT=63bb/100

1 raiser 3bet=true
CO=109bb/100
BT=60bb/100

1 raiser coldcall=true
CO=96bb/100
BT=11bb/100 (lost 2bi with AQo from 46 hands)

Gooner, how about you say what advice is useless rather than being condescending. Wtf does do what you feel even mean.

Will look at that later, shark.

I don't know what that is shark. Post how often your open raise gets 3b from each position.

Yeah, wtf was that Gooner?

I think he means that OP is free to work on GTO stuff if he so desires? that is his right, lol, but my friendly advice is that his time is better spent elsewhere. Also Nirwanda I think it's weird that we're allies these days haha. :-)


oh, I see that you just did button here and not CO, right? Getting 3bet 20% OTB is very much normal. At 100nl my button opens were 3bet at 19%. At 200nl it's around 20%.

As you said it's a 10% range from each player on average. People are going to construct their ranges differently but if your average opponents 3bet a 10% range like this:


then on average I'm sure you can see that people aren't really 3bet crazy maniacs like they seem and that you don't need to be super paranoid about it.

As I said before of course these generalizations aren't super helpful but I do think this is still a good thing to know.

i have no recollection of making that post lol. my apologies.

do what you feel means ... well do what you feel

lots of good advice in here. i personally think having some appreciation of GTO ranges is very useful, not because you should be implementing them in most/any 100 or 200 games, but adjusting from a base range to an explo range becomes so much easier..... don't have to make threads asking what it should be

Sorry if that wasn't clear. Faced 3bet by possition(stacks >95bb). Also made sure i removed limp-reraising also:
UT: 357/2188=16.3% (16.3/5=3.26% per player - i prob burn money with QQ/AK)
MP: 706/4411=16% (16/4=4% per player - burning money again with QQ/AK)
CO: 1177/6603=17.8% (17.8/3=5.9% per player)
BT: 1834/10442=17.6% (17.6/5.9% per player)
SB: 397/4553=8.7%

The other stuff i posted was my win rates for raising unopened, raising 1 limper, 3betting a raiser, and cold calling.

Well my fold to 3bet OTB is 80%. If i opened more than 40%, im folding too often to 3bets, defending a wide range such as this: 77+,A9s+,K9s+,Q9s+,J9s+,T8s+,97s+,87s,AJo+,KQo
Also, I wouldn't flat 1/2 of this stuff against UT pfr who would open wider than the avarage player 3bets.
If i opened say 60% of hands against a couple of regs and they where both 3betting me 10-15% each, id be folding 78% to 3bets(like i am now), and people tell me i have a leak.

Yeah, that's mostly why i do it, and to try and bring down my fold to 3bet% from 80% to 66%.

I think you divided that one wrong, probably just a typo. Should be 8.8%. Those are all really similar to my numbers.

yeah I knew what it was, not sure why I said "i don't know what that is." Your sample is too small to look too closely into winrates.

there's a subtle difference between understanding how your own stats work together and just playing in a certain way to artificially create "perfect" stats. You probably know this and that sentence ^ isn't really how you think but in case you don't trying to bring your f3bet to 66% from 80% isn't exactly the right way to go about it. If you just wanted to bring your f3bet down then all you have to do is start flatting a bunch of hands in bad spots to 3bets. Same with something like W$WSF; if yours is low and you'd rather it be 48% then just start check-raising every hand. Obviously that would be a poor approach. The better way to do this is just look for more situations where you can defend a hand that you wouldn't normally. As you improve at poker your stats should naturally start to move toward what most people would consider more ideal stat ranges (though perfect stats don't really exist; lots of different styles can win). A good LAG didn't just decide to be really loose preflop one day. He just slowly found more and more profitable spots to play a hand and eventually he found so many profitable spots that he runs 31/26 and 3bets wide and floats wide and so on.

To lower your f3bet it's better to look at it like this: maybe a particular villain 3bets wide and cbets 90% in 3bet pots but bets the turn only 30%. Against him start to call wider and do more floating with a plan to bet the turn. That would be a decent way to go about this while "i want to bring my fold to 3bet down to 66% for GTO reasons" is imo not the correct way to think about this.

^

whilst i tend to agree with alot of that, the last statement doesn't really do any justice to what modelling for GTO base ranges achieves imo.

what does it achieve? GTO stuff has never really made sense to me.

Appreciate the help Keyser, thanks.
Most villain's i run into, i don't have a large enough sample for cbet in 3betpot, and i don't have any sample for 2barrel in 3bet pot. I find that people play differently in 3bet pots than in single raised pots also, so perhaps i run into a player who's stats say he cbets 63%, and i start calling a reasonable range to his 3bet, and find myself facing a cbet frequently and just giving up because i think he's not cbetting often or i get check-raised when i do bet.
I know ur just giving an extreme example with the 90%/30%, but i struggle to find exploitabilities in regs 3bet pot game, like this.

Mostly i run into guys who are cbetting 75%+, and have 50%+ or so 2barrel, i just don't know how to play the hands when i miss but have some sort of equity. I can't really raise many flops, since i have no value raising range on most flops. Part of the trouble is, i try and split up my range by 4betting premiums and flatting weaker hands KQ/89s ect.. i think i should just not have a 4bet range IP.

well {obviously} it's main aim is to stop us from being exploited by unknown opponents in aggressive games. this isn't such a huge worry/a worry at all at 100nl. however, there are a fair number of regs that will be particularly aggressive preflop

knowing how to defend optimally can be a pretty comforting thing for someone who doesn't have a great deal of experience facing aggressive preflop 3bet/4bettors, it helps prevent them from making large mistakes and potentially over-zealous adjustments

i agree with you that the ultimate aim is to become much more comfortable playing re-raised pots vs different villain types and being able to somewhat instinctually adapt based on stat interpretation/gameflow/history/stacksizes etc, but i think i'd be correct in saying that the reason you feel relatively at home in alot of these spots is purely down to experience...? youve made adjustments based on stats/gameflow so many times in your career that you know what to look for, as you said before, a guy who's 3betting a ton and cbetting a ton might not bluff turns enough ---> i.e. explo adjustments

if you know solid base ranges vs an 'x% opener, or an x% 3bettor from position x,y,z' you shouldn't see it as handcuffing you into playing those ranges. in fact it should do the opposite. learning how to take a hand from range A (flat) and put it into range B (3bet) or range C (fold) (or vice versa) based on how x% changes is essentially what you talk about doing instinctively and is probably the most important preflop tool a poker player continues to perfect. i can't see how it can be argued that this isn't made much easier if you know how you should respond to a player as a default.

I don't mean to derail this thread but I just wanna ask you guys a question regarding CO open.

I played this hand on a brand new account and this is my very first time playing this stake at this site. It's my very first orbit and I get AKs on CO. I open to 2x and the guy 3bets me so I 4bet him and he 5bet shove so I call. Obviously, I'm running very bad in these spots in general but do you guys 5bet/bluff/shove a completely unknown player more often than someone you know?

$3/$6 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players

UTG: $2,047.73 (341.3 bb)
MP: $279.20 (46.5 bb)
Hero (CO): $618 (103 bb)
BTN: $240 (40 bb)
SB: $600 (100 bb)
BB: $851.13 (141.9 bb)

Preflop: Hero is CO with A K
2 folds, Hero raises to $12, BTN folds, SB raises to $48, BB folds, Hero raises to $132, SB raises to $600 and is all-in, Hero calls $468

Flop: ($1,206) Q J 8 (2 players, 1 is all-in)
Turn: ($1,206) A (2 players, 1 is all-in)
River: ($1,206) 4 (2 players, 1 is all-in)

Results: $1,206 pot ($2.80 rake)
Final Board: Q J 8 A 4
Hero mucked A K and lost (-$600 net)
SB showed A 8 and won $1,203.20 ($603.20 net)

He types "sorry, tilting" in chat box which didn't help me understand his play.

Just wanted to say ignore what i posted above, i talk some BS sometimes.
No i don't bluff shove vs an unknown often carl.

your 4bet size is way to big.. so I dont get why he'd jam A8s