BB is 64/23 over 40 hands
CO is 29/25 over 200 hands, decent reg (fold to donkbet 50%, raise donkbet 0%)

i need a plan...

is raise/calling too thin? thoughts on calling and shoving turn bricks? fwiw i think this situation becomes alot easier if the fish isnt involved.

Full Tilt Poker $100.00 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

MP: $37.55
CO: $223.55
Hero (BTN): $124.45
SB: $105.80
BB: $105.60
UTG: $117.30

Pre Flop: ($1.50) Hero is BTN with Q T
2 folds, CO raises to $3, Hero calls $3, 1 fold, BB calls $2

Flop: ($9.50) Q T A (3 players)
BB bets $9.50, CO calls $9.50, Hero...

Tough spot... since the fish donkbet, I start by raising to try to clear out the TAG, and then I soul-read from there. The only "plan" I can come up with involves trying not to break something. But usually I'm just giving up if I get much resistance.

I think raising here is fine, though I believe the line is to raise/fold

since BB is the fat fish, it's doubtful he folds Ax or even some crap like QJ here, but if he 3bets your raise you're easily toast.

I'm also not too concerned with CO because if he had a hand bigger than yours I'd also assume he would raise the fish

raise away (but fold to 3bet/shove)

so are you folding to 3b/shove from CO aswell?

also what kinda sizing do you make it if we're intending to raise/fold?

I don't think CO will just get out of line and jam something you beat, though I would find it bizarre if he did shove. I don't think you'll see CO shoving very much at all.

And making it ~32 sets up an easy turn shove against BB if he calls.

Yeah, I think this is the line. $32 now, shove blank turn if only fish comes along.

what are the fish's postflop tendencies (passive/aggro/donking freq)? i think i like a call. we can't stand a 3bet from either player really. there is no flush draw out. just exercise some pot control. since when is 29/25 tag?

I'm probably raising to get it in vs fish, folding if CO jams.

We have relative and absolute position. Why do we have to raise? We only hate 8 cards in the deck.

Yeah, good point. But a raise will max vs fish's wide range, and probably minimize what we lose if CO has the goods.

+1, this is the reason to raise.

Please to be explaining HOW?

Fish chases/pays off with a ton of worse hands, and if CO doesn't fold, we are done with the hand with minimal pain instead of having to guess where we are later.

i agree with n4rf.

that said, i don't mind flatting here at all either.

I disagree with everything. Even a fish can find a fold after he donks pot on this board and then gets called and then raised out of nowhere. I also don't think there is much guessing. If fish bets turn and CO flats again we're going to have about the same amount of money in as the line you suggested if we decide to flat a second time (not saying we should). If fish checks turn and CO bets into us I think we can just fold. I don't see how raising accomplishes absolutely anything.

Well, you asked and I told you.

Why did you ask if you are so certain?

If you don't think there's value from the fish, I don't know what else to say to you. Of course he can "find a fold". Anyone can find a fold at any time. That doesn't mean there's no value.

And if you don't see how you can completely define your hand vs. the CO by raising, I don't know what else to say to you.

Anyway, I'm done.

1.if we raise:
bb fish calls with worse hands(if not the turn can not help him to improve unless a turn is also a bad card for us J K A)
if bb calls and CO raises it is easy fold imo and we lost minimum there.

2.if we flat:
and a turn is blank we are guessing and we have to call again regardless of the CO action(unless he raises) and if so i think ill call blank river also
if turn is bad A K or J i think we have to fold if BB bets again.

dont u think fish will get it in with AK/AJ on flop and call a raise with pretty much any A ? i'm raising and folding if CO shoves, but def want to get in in vs fish. also calling is pretty bad imo, since when the brick comes and it goes check bet, u don't know if u're ahead or no. (i believe CO could vBET AK AJ here)

Ok, I have 4 questions for whoever:

1) What do you think fish's range is here and what he does with various parts of it vs a raise? vs a flat?
2) What is COs range when he flats here?
3) What do you think CO thinks our overcalling range is?
4) What is he betting on the turn if it bricks off and the fish checks (given #3)?

Still don't love getting it in vs fish because there's really nothing the fish reshoves that we beat.

I agree, but honestly, even if he does it doesn't even matter. If the fish shoves every Ax, any two broadway, and some J9, K9, J8 type crap, and never has AK, AQ, KJ, or a pair (kinda optimistic, no?) he probably still has like 33% equity and is still folding a fair amount of other total crap. I don't think we are going to make enough money pushing this edge to make up for the % of the time we have to bet/fold F 32bb, which I think is pretty often.

And for the other posters: fish having AK is somewhat discounted since he flats. You really think CO is valuebetting AJ on a turn brick after we overcall? Given he is a decent reg and we have a clean image, please name the worse hands we can have here.

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