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Old 06-18-2017, 07:10 PM   #1
DJShipIt
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1/2 live cash game folding KK

Playing 1/2 at the casino. Villain has about $600 and is playing really solid. Villain is the only one at the table I was scared to get into it with.

Hero OTB with KK
Villain MP

Folds to villain and villain opens to $13
Folds to hero and hero 3bets to $45
Folds to villain and villain calls
***FLOP***
AQ7
Villain checks
Hero checks
***TURN***
AQ7 (4)
Villain bets $65
Hero folds

I was kicking myself for not C betting but I didn't think he was calling a 3bet without a high pocket pair or AK. Thank you for comments in advance. Villain did show and I will post in comments later.
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Old 06-18-2017, 07:15 PM   #2
chrisventresca83
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Re: 1/2 live cash game folding KK

How much did you have left? How were you playing? Tight? Loose?

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Old 06-18-2017, 08:55 PM   #3
DJShipIt
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Re: 1/2 live cash game folding KK

I was playing TAG but mixed in some good bluffs. I showed a 72o about an hour before that profited like $50. I had about $500 stack at the begining of the hand
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Old 06-18-2017, 08:58 PM   #4
chrisventresca83
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Re: 1/2 live cash game folding KK

I would have shoved all in. Seemed like he was bullying you. Put him test

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Old 06-19-2017, 12:26 AM   #5
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Re: 1/2 live cash game folding KK

Yeah I think a C-bet is necessary on this board. It hits your 3-betting range hard, and if Villain calls you can narrow his range significantly. If he's a solid player like you said, he can probably call a 3 bet with AJ+, KQs, 88-JJ, and probably some other suited broadway hands and suited connectors, like 9Ts, JTs, QTs, KJs, and so on. I think almost all of this range will probably fire at that turn card because by checking back the turn it is very unlikely that you have an Ax hand. He probably is leading out OTT with his flush and combo draws, which you are ahead of. You block Kx hands, but he could have plenty of other holdings that call here. So he has 12 combos of AJ and AK, 4 combos of AQ, so that's 28 combos that we are in terrible shape against. He also has 2 combos of KQs, KJs, and KTs, 6 combos of JJ, TT, 99, 88, 3 combos of QJs, QTs, and 4 combos of 9Ts, JTs. So that's 44 combos that we're doing well against. Calling $65 to win $155 gives us better than 3:1 odds, so I think we have to make this call.

Sorry if the numbers are off, I wrote this out quickly. It really depends on what you think his 3-bet calling range is in MP. If you think it really is only big pairs and AK, then that would be 12 combos of AK that you're behind, and 6 combos of 99, TT, and JJ, and maybe 3 combos of QQ (assuming queens aren't 4 betting). That still gives you the right price to make the call OTT.
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Old 06-19-2017, 01:25 AM   #6
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Re: 1/2 live cash game folding KK

By c-betting on the flop, you are the aggressor, instead of letting him attack the pot on the turn. Therefore, I would argue that you MUST c-bet on that flop. Make it $50. If he calls, then I would probably shut it down.
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Old 06-19-2017, 01:28 AM   #7
Wungee
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Re: 1/2 live cash game folding KK

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisventresca83 View Post
I would have shoved all in. Seemed like he was bullying you. Put him test

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As I already said, I would c-bet the flop, but with that said, as the hand was played, I would NOT shove the turn when he leads out with a $65 bet. What does a shove accomplish that a raise to $175 doesn't? I mean, sure, he can no longer pressure you if you shove, but if you shove, only a hand that beats kings is calling. That's my 2 cents anyway.
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Old 06-19-2017, 06:10 AM   #8
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Re: 1/2 live cash game folding KK

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisventresca83 View Post
I would have shoved all in. Seemed like he was bullying you. Put him test

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This would be the worst option. By checking we will leave ourselves to be exploited by aggressive players, hopefully you have some Ax type of hands you are checking here as well to protect against this. Some people will bet this 100% here almost always and some check almost always against this type of villain. I also don't think calling is bad on the turn to see if he shuts it down on the river, but if you assume a river bullet is coming, it's obviously best to lose the least amount of money.
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Old 06-19-2017, 12:04 PM   #9
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Re: 1/2 live cash game folding KK

Ok here's the crazy part he had QQ so he hit his set OTF. In my assessment I only saw him flat with a 3 bet against me so I had to put him on the very top of the range AJ+ and TT+ which was extramly nitty but like I said I was scared to get into it with him to begin with. Not CBeting actually saved me about $50. I think I have a hard time C betting KK with Ace on flop in live games. Even though I know that's not the right play it's just difficult for me.
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Old 06-19-2017, 04:09 PM   #10
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Re: 1/2 live cash game folding KK

Quote:
Originally Posted by ClintPoker View Post
Yeah I think a C-bet is necessary on this board. It hits your 3-betting range hard, and if Villain calls you can narrow his range significantly. If he's a solid player like you said, he can probably call a 3 bet with AJ+, KQs, 88-JJ, and probably some other suited broadway hands and suited connectors, like 9Ts, JTs, QTs, KJs, and so on. I think almost all of this range will probably fire at that turn card because by checking back the turn it is very unlikely that you have an Ax hand. He probably is leading out OTT with his flush and combo draws, which you are ahead of. You block Kx hands, but he could have plenty of other holdings that call here. So he has 12 combos of AJ and AK, 4 combos of AQ, so that's 28 combos that we are in terrible shape against. He also has 2 combos of KQs, KJs, and KTs, 6 combos of JJ, TT, 99, 88, 3 combos of QJs, QTs, and 4 combos of 9Ts, JTs. So that's 44 combos that we're doing well against. Calling $65 to win $155 gives us better than 3:1 odds, so I think we have to make this call.

Sorry if the numbers are off, I wrote this out quickly. It really depends on what you think his 3-bet calling range is in MP. If you think it really is only big pairs and AK, then that would be 12 combos of AK that you're behind, and 6 combos of 99, TT, and JJ, and maybe 3 combos of QQ (assuming queens aren't 4 betting). That still gives you the right price to make the call OTT.
Forgot to quote so you can respond to my last comment
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Old 06-19-2017, 11:39 PM   #11
PTMHM
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Re: 1/2 live cash game folding KK

Quote:
Originally Posted by jay94 View Post
This would be the worst option. By checking we will leave ourselves to be exploited by aggressive players, hopefully you have some Ax type of hands you are checking here as well to protect against this. Some people will bet this 100% here almost always and some check almost always against this type of villain. I also don't think calling is bad on the turn to see if he shuts it down on the river, but if you assume a river bullet is coming, it's obviously best to lose the least amount of money.
+1 really prefer a turn call. Most players will shut down without an ace otr. No point in leading otf. When river goes c/c we almost always win.

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Old 06-20-2017, 10:17 PM   #12
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Re: 1/2 live cash game folding KK

Some seriously bad replies itt.

Pre is good, nice sizing. Flop i prefer a check, you can do this with AA/QQ/AQ on this texture too so it's not like your hand is face up at all.

Turn you have to take a card off. You say he's a decent player, i assume for live this means he's not a complete retard, so he can have some diamond combos or be stabbing with some bluffs after you checked flop. Basically see the final card and decide, but it's def way too weak to surrender on the turn with KK.
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Old 06-22-2017, 01:00 AM   #13
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Re: 1/2 live cash game folding KK

I guess we should construct a checback range for these boardstructures and kk might fit well into it. Betting to “keep the initiative“ is so 2002 and flawed logic imo...
Would hate to fold vs his JdTd checkraise...
If we are checking balanced here with some Ax hands, this spot isnt too hard to play...

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Old 06-22-2017, 02:35 AM   #14
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Re: 1/2 live cash game folding KK

So much better to cbet oop than in position. Check is pretty standard here although there is some merit to betting at times, but in a vacuum vs a rando, check. Peel turn most of the time unless he's some, easy to read, live player.
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