So variance is really high in PLO. Everyone is saying they run 15-20 BI's under EV each month... so if you're running 20bis under each month how are u not broke? Or how are you winning money if there's nothing but high variance? Why play PLO if you're going to get it in 60-50% and lose?

I understand the players are suppose to be worse in PLO then NL but if you're always dealing with losing while ahead... aren't u losing more?

Lots of flips in PLO, translating to higher variance, LDO. However, also lots of spew, dominated draws, people getting it in with bottom 2 vs top set... and playing cards rather than poker, if you know what I mean.

Look at the graphs of the best players, look at players/flop, look at average pot, compare to NLHE. There's a ton of action and huge edges to be had, but you need a healthy roll and a hard stomach to survive the inevitable swings.

Personally, I think PLO is a game that requires deep stacks (200bb+) to be at its prime and allow the best players to shine, perhaps we'll move into that direction in the future and end up with less stack-offs.

As everywhere, those who're running 20 BI above EV don't like to disclose it, fearing hatred

(My own green line in iPoker PLO tried to dive behind the EV one yesterday after a long good time, but I didn't let it trespass )

Don't listen to Eskimo's whines about too many forum regs going down stakes. Those regs are just getting old as well as me and can't readjust to the new regs who are emerging and taking over.

I'm running 40 bi above EV at microstakes. So I'm pretty bad but can still move up! Woohoow!

Go get a real job: what would you recommend are steps I take to get better? I've read some books but all the information in there seems kinda standard not sure if thats me being stupid. I can't use hem on the network I play on (ultimate poker) and so much talk is with stats am I doomed?

Eventhough I'm a videocoach myself, I'm pretty sure most of this community agrees that training sites such as CardRunners and RunItOnce are excellent value and great for beginners.

I also suggest joining a study group, submitting your stats for analysis, and - if you can afford it - personal coaching.

GGaRJ, the problem is that stats can't be submitted for analysis - no tracker is yet compatible with UP!

A way out is to film sessions (using a screen recorder like Camstudio) and watch and analyse them later or show them to peers or to have real-time sweat sessions over Skype & Teamviewer.

(If you want to ruin the games by making them HUD-compatible, try donating HHs to FPDB developers.)

Ggarj how much do you charge im broke and play plo25

Those sites aren't cheap and when I'm a losing plo player it doesn't help. especially phils

sorry i believe my post was unclear (probably because i followed it up with a personal joke/bitch haha). you can run hundreds of bis under expectation easily but you can just as easily run hundreds of bis over expectation. variance runs both ways.

all i was saying is that you shouldnt blink an eye at running 20 bi under, nor should you think much of running 50 bi over the next month. its just omaha, thats a part of the game, and if swings like that really stress you out then you might be better off playing something else.

^^ The essential subscription is of decent value and not a big hit on the bankroll, especially because it's OK to take it every third or fourth month.

The variance is high but over large sample sizes winning players will still have graphs that go from bottom left to top right.

+1 to working on your game via any means possible - the essentials package at RIO seems like a good place to start as well as by posting questions on forums and seeing if you can join a study group alongside players at a similar place in their game.

I just looked at my graph for all the hands I have on this computer and in just over 3,000,000 hands there are two breakeven stretches for about 500k hands each, and one for 600k (albeit this was when I was starting out and probably not a winning player). The long term is really damn long but if you can stomach it there is a lot of money to be made.

Also, those stretches are excluding any form of RB/VPP rewards. They can really help soften the blow during dowswings/break-even stretches.

Ah, my bad, no tracker, no stats. That's pretty bad since it gives a coach just sweating to go with.

I'm not currently looking for students, that might change after xmas though. However, if you can't even afford a videosite subscription, a lot of coaches will be too expensive - myself included.

You must find an active coach on ur own as this sub-forum is not appropriate, but I have recently created a sticky here where you can check their credentials from members of this community.

I'd say joining a study group is ur best bet at this time, also a sticky for those on top of the lobby.

BRB going to get drunk, then go bridge shopping....

Thanks a lot for all the replies guys means a lot. I'm terrible at hand reading or putting my opponents on any soft of range. How do I go about doing this with no hud available?

Hand reading is really the most elite skill of poker. It's what separates the guys that can consistently beat 5/T from the guys at 25/50.

The best way to learn it is playing a lot of hands while focussed and observant. Notice how certain players bluff, value bet and polarise (top+bottom of range, usually will be a large sized bet). After each session go back over your hands. Think about what you expected each player to show up with. Did they? If not, learn from that.

Anyway a good place to start is probably: How would I play here, what would I be thinking here? Then next is realising which player types play like you and which don't play like you.

There's no hud u can use on this site but I swear I'm playing ultra tight. And I always whiff the ****ing board..

I feel like all I'm doing is folding

and I'm busto again

AskYoBish posts small blind (0.10)
420d0n posts big blind (0.25)
AskYoBish is dealt down
420d0n is dealt down
brainiac is dealt down
RUSH is dealt down
Drakfan702 is dealt down [Ad Ah 7s 6c]
brainiac raises to (0.50)
RUSH calls (0.50)
Drakfan702 calls (0.50)
AskYoBish folds
420d0n raises to (1.25)
brainiac calls (1.25)
RUSH calls (1.25)
Drakfan702 raises to (6.35)
420d0n calls (6.35)
brainiac folds
RUSH folds
flop: [5d 9c 3d]
420d0n bets (4.20)
Drakfan702 raises to (27.22)
420d0n calls (26.87) and is all-in
Drakfan702 is refunded (0.35)
420d0n shows [8c 7c 4d 6s]
Drakfan702 shows [Ad Ah 7s 6c]
turn: [Ks]
river: [2d]
AskYoBish player rake contribution is (0.01)
420d0n player rake contribution is (0.97)
brainiac player rake contribution is (0.03)
RUSH player rake contribution is (0.03)
Drakfan702 player rake contribution is (0.96)
420d0n shows [8c 7c 4d 6s]
Drakfan702 shows [Ad Ah 7s 6c]
420d0n wins (67.04)


hand history converted doesn't work with this site. how terrible was my play I'm busto now.

Pf is bad. Raise, don't limp.

Flop is std whatever

I didn't think those AA we're strong enough to raise but once it got 3bet I thought I could stick more of my stack in. Thanks though.

Roy could u sprinkle some knowledge on how to get better at hand reading?

Aight, closing this now as the convo is starting to sidetrack quite a bit.

Hand histories: create a new thread

Quick strat questions: post in beginners' sticky

Progress report: post in BBV or create a PG&C thread

Questions to Roy: post in his new Q&A on the front page