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wait for safe turn to GII? wait for safe turn to GII?

05-12-2015 , 11:37 AM
    Poker Stars, $0.02/$0.05 No Limit Omaha Cash, 6 Players
    Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite. View Hand #36332231

    BTN: $5.35 (107 bb)
    SB: $5.64 (112.8 bb)
    BB: $5 (100 bb)
    UTG: $10.40 (208 bb)
    MP: $15.68 (313.6 bb)
    Hero (CO): $32.49 (649.8 bb)

    Preflop: Hero is CO with 9 5 8 6
    UTG folds, MP raises to $0.17, Hero raises to $0.58, BTN calls $0.58, 2 folds, MP calls $0.41

    Flop: ($1.81) 2 4 3 (3 players)
    MP checks, Hero bets $1.30, BTN raises to $4.77 and is all-in, MP calls $4.77, Hero raises to $20.82, MP calls $10.33 and is all-in




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    Action goes cbet, snapshove, snapcall. So I think MP has clubs almost always. I got excited having the nuts in what looks like being a giant pot and just mashed it in. Pretty unlikely to be being freerolled and shoving flop is definitely not - EV but it might be better to just call and fold to shoves on clubs while shoving non clubs myself right? I mean even if he folds for his last 10 my equity mustn't be too much worse than a flop shove right?
    wait for safe turn to GII? Quote
    05-12-2015 , 11:50 AM
    Don't think of the nuts the same way in NLHE, it is just a coincedence in NLHE that the nuts is always the nuts barring some incredibly rare very multiway spots where the nuts is the non nuts.

    Anyway I think you played the hand super standard, but I would shave some sizing off your 3b amount to optimize preflop. You don't particularly want to bloat the pot, just try to get heads up IP due to your top gap meaning to avoid multiway play.
    wait for safe turn to GII? Quote
    05-12-2015 , 12:20 PM
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Mt.FishNoob
    Don't think of the nuts the same way in NLHE, it is just a coincedence in NLHE that the nuts is always the nuts barring some incredibly rare very multiway spots where the nuts is the non nuts.

    Anyway I think you played the hand super standard, but I would shave some sizing off your 3b amount to optimize preflop. You don't particularly want to bloat the pot, just try to get heads up IP due to your top gap meaning to avoid multiway play.
    Bloating the pot is fine with me when I figure to win it more often than my opponent.
    wait for safe turn to GII? Quote
    05-12-2015 , 12:54 PM
    OK, so using actual hands my EV in this pot was $19.49 when the money went in with me contributing $15.68 so my expected net gain was $3.99.

    If a club comes on the turn and MP shoves into the dry side pot I fold, losing $4.77. He should never bluff here so I'll discount the chance I am folding equity. Assuming 2 clubs in his hand and counting 2 on board and 1 in my hand there are 8 remaining and 44 unknown cards. So 18% of the time i'll lose $5.35

    On a non club I shove with 81% equity. If he folds I win 100% of 5.35*3 (when, as in this case my other opponent is drawing dead with a wheel). Accounting for rake, I win 12.48 - 5.35 for an expected profit of $7.03. If he calls, I win 81% of $35,79 - 15.68 as my expected profit. This amounts to $13.30. Now a non club only comes 81% of the time so my expected profit from each line needs to be multiplied by .81.

    So if he will fold non clubs my expected value is about $1.60 better calling and shoving non club turns than shoving flop. If he calls on non club turns its 6.78 better. Gotta assume there is a non zero chance he calls incorrectly on the turn. So calling and shoving turn is better and its not close.

    This is all given the hands we actually had. I'm not going to try figuring out when the all in player isn't dead. If anyone spots a flaw in my workings out let me know - although I am sure most people won't read them anyway.
    wait for safe turn to GII? Quote
    05-12-2015 , 05:43 PM
    What about when turn is a club and you fold incorrectly vs a set before the river? Too tired now to check your calculations but I'm pretty sure shipping flop is correct play.

    @MFN: Will you please stop posting every time about 3b sizings? Sometimes you are right but often you are wrong (such as this hand) We want to 3b pot because we are 300bb deep IP and when we have a strong hand we want to get as much money in pot where we have an equity advantage. Trying to balance 2 ranges with less than pot 3b is just pointless and stupid at this stack depth.
    wait for safe turn to GII? Quote
    05-12-2015 , 08:12 PM
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by F_Ivanovic
    What about when turn is a club and you fold incorrectly vs a set before the river? Too tired now to check your calculations but I'm pretty sure shipping flop is correct play.

    @MFN: Will you please stop posting every time about 3b sizings? Sometimes you are right but often you are wrong (such as this hand) We want to 3b pot because we are 300bb deep IP and when we have a strong hand we want to get as much money in pot where we have an equity advantage. Trying to balance 2 ranges with less than pot 3b is just pointless and stupid at this stack depth.
    You think he shoves clubs with a set into a dry side pot when I overcall? I mean it could happen but it would be beyond terrible. I mean I can have a naked nut fd pretty easily with my line. Also I think that there is a bit of stock to be put in the timing tells. From me betting to the raise and overcall there was less than a second which elapsed. All in all I am comfortable folding clubs if he shoves them.
    wait for safe turn to GII? Quote
    05-12-2015 , 08:20 PM
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by F_Ivanovic

    @MFN: Will you please stop posting every time about 3b sizings?
    It's not every time.

    And no.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by thelato
    Bloating the pot is fine with me when I figure to win it more often than my opponent.
    Up to you but it's trading off space behind IP, because of depth it doesn't matter a whole lot. I just personally think that a small shave is good as it allows you to open up more 3b range vs him. If you PSB only then your 3b range is going to be narrower than mine. Which is fine, it's subjective. You need some insurance vs 3 way pots and 4bs... 97** is not good 3 ways although it can be pretty good vs two super tight ranges.
    wait for safe turn to GII? Quote

          
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