Why? I'd like to hear more.

Cogent response..

QQT8ss and QQ86ss are both pretty good hands. weirdly they remain good at varying stack depth, but for totally different reasons.

not sure how you can say he played it badly with no reads on opponent or stacksizes, but vs a guy that will stack off with J9 on J933 i think its really really hard to say the play is bad.

(ftr it might have been bad, we dont have all info, and i think at a tough table it is a fold in early position, probably up to MP2 or so)

I don't talk to people who don't listen. Habit I picked up from intolerable family members.

I'd be happy to discuss with you, not Alien. I'll go over the hands after my session

Huh, and I "don't listen" where? I have made supporting comments, and you have made only snide remarks.

You have made zero cogent comments in this thread - no, you are only trolling. Welcome to the ignore list.

in the 2nd hand, you have 2 players having 8d Flop contains Qd and 5c which you have in a players hand. ...i changed those and ran the preflop equity in propoker tools.

you have 27% equity here, just 13% off from main villain that's mainly because another villain has an A.

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi Simulation

376,992 trials (Exhaustive)

Hand	Pot equity	Wins	Ties
AdAs7s5c	40.79%	152,240	3,057
7h7d8s9c	16.29%	60,650	2,061
AcTc8c2s	15.18%	55,457	4,092
QcQd6c8d	27.73%	104,040	1,548

Post flop equity.

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi Simulation

528 trials (Exhaustive)

board: Q57

Hand	Pot equity	Wins	Ties
AdAs7s5c	8.14%	43	0
7h7d8s9c	14.77%	78	0
AcTc8c2s	8.14%	43	0
QcQd6c8d	68.94%	364	0

Now let's assume you're against the AAxx villain alone preflop, you're 62/37, imo 37% equity is average against this particular preflop raiser but this hand should be in pretty good shape against some folks who raise wider.

yrmom is a very good player. When i disagree with him I usually say to myself "yrmom is right, I just can't see it." I think alien may be on the tightish side.

From your reaction to losing that amount I would say your stop loss should be lower than the amount you lost. If it hurts that much to lose that much, you should have quit before, since you went lower than your pain intolerance treshold.

You would probably do better overall not raising at all in EP and just limping to limp/call or limp/reraise. You destroy your ability to manipulate pot size too often by raising in EP in FRPLO.

Yep, jamming pre as an equity dog with no FE seems atrocious



This hand mostly shows why your EP raise is pumping variance for nothing, rest of the hand is standard



Probably just limp/reraise if SB is the kind of live player who gets excited at the idea of "sweetning the pot". If he raise/jams, we can pretty comfortably fold barring some read.

I would rather lower the SPR and reduce the number of players to the flop with a really strong but non nutty hand like QQ86ds

Given these reads, definitely limp/reraise if V1 is SB LAGfish


All of this here is just BBV material

QQT8 isn't top 5% in equity - it's equity matches top 19% (heads up) nowhere near 5%.

http://www.propokertools.com/simulat...9%25&s=generic

Your ignore list must be broken.

Here's an example if you want. Don't completely trust "ranking" feature on PPT, but it's an OK place to start.

http://www.propokertools.com/simulat...24ds&s=generic

Other piece of advice: there's much better than Hwang out there.

This is good to Know - I've never interacted with him before, but his first comments in this thread were snide to say the least. I might review more of his posts...

Yes, I am tight - from what I've experienced in live play in LA, tight gets people's stacks.

I like getting people's stacks.

But we don't know much about hand 1's preflop action unless im missing something.

there are spots in omaha we should be playing close to a4c. top 19% with a relatively black/white hand in most spots is decent enough imo.

Sorry if I was a douche. I don't like when people dismiss what I say, it angers me unspeakable points.

I try to always be open to being outright wrong even if I'm sure I'm right, and when I feel its no reciprocate, I get pissed.

Watch out with this thinking though. If you think playing tight will always net money because other people make fundamental errors, you might do OK for a while, but it's a dangerous road to go down; you're effectively folding yourself out of tough decisions.

In some games, like the really shorthanded or the really passive games, you pass up on a lot of money by playing "the strategy" instead of questioning everything you do at all times.

He says in a later post he raised UTG - IMO an early raise with this hand is just trouble. Not sure I like limping early, either - depends on table texture though - if we can see a cheap flop, limping should be okay.

oh ok... missed that

at most tables raising this UTG isnt good. a minraise in a bad game could be optimal though.

Well I apologize if you feel I dismissed what you were saying - I didn't intend to be dismissive - my point though as I work on my own opening strategy, is to treat a hand like QQT8 and especially QQ86 as speculative, as I would gapped connectors in holdem. Speculative hands play poorly OOP - I don't see raising early here as a good idea.


Funny thing is, at least in hold em, I think of myself as a LAG or LAG/TAG - yet everyone else calls me a TAG or nit... I handle tough decisions in hold em well - but I don't have enough feel for PLO yet to constantly put myself in tough spots.

Nevertheless, I see the huge errors that people make in PLO and I understand what you are saying - my focus is on post flop play more than pre, but pre I still want hands that are more likely to be dominating rather than dominated.

Perhaps the tone of your post should reflect this lack of experience, rather than the matter-of-fact approach you currently approach - it's one thing to be enthusiastic in giving your opinion, but some of your advice is naive at best and at worst just plain bad.

Hwang's work is ok but far from definitive, and very little of it applied to 6 max online PLO 3-4 years ago, never mind now.

Im glad others chimed in about his comments. I like QQT8 and 68. I dont love them but im never folding those preflop. I dont like Jeffs books either. Not for live FR PLO at least. There is a lot of new stuff that just makes more sense. I have played a lot of plo, live and online. I 100% disagreed with the poster so its good to know Im not crazy with my thoughts.

Oh? Would you care to cite an example?

Researching him indicates he is the most respected author in terms of Pot Limit Omaha. Do you have a different "definitive" author?


[QUOTE=cap217;40750232]Im glad others chimed in about his comments. I like QQT8 and 68. I dont love them but im never folding those preflop.

You don't love them? Then why are you raising in early position with them???

My point is that your EP raise was really bad.

And "never folding preflop" ?? Really? If theres a raise and a re raise in front of you you're not folding? That's a huge leak.

Limping ?? Sure, fine. But raising is bad and cold calling big raises may also be bad in most situations.


What books do you like?

As far as "100% disagree" - You stated yourself you are a losing player. As a winning player I offered advice on what I see as bad play in the hands in question. The kind of mistakes I see the guys that sit, rebuy several times, and leave broke every day at Commerce.

You can listen to what you WANT to hear, which is fine. But in answering your question, I see big mistakes in play, even in the hands you cherry picked to whine about "how unlucky" you are.

I'd like to point out that YRMOM made some of the same statements on your post flop play as I did. If there is any "discrepancy" in opinion, it is related to preflop.

We all get the same cards, and are hit by the same bad beats. You cant judge variance by three hands, but mistakes in play might be noticed.

But I'm not going to give you some ego boost by saying that "oh its just run bad" when clearly it isn't.

There isn't a definitive author for 6 max PLO imo, and that's one of the reasons the games remain pretty decent.

LOL. You don't need "definitive" on a narrow version of the game to know that certain principals of poker, like POSITION are important.

You say Hwang is not definitive - but then you say that no one is... This argument is obviously going nowhere. Listen to what you want to hear...

Where did I state I am a losing player? I am a big winner in limit hold em and a solid winner in PLO. I am a small winner in nl but that was from losing mostly in 10/20 Bellagio and 5/10 games years ago. I did well in smaller stakes. I said I am running horribly bad for months now in PLO and wanted to look at my play.

As for qqt8, I'm folding to big 3 bets but that doesn't happen often in small stakes PLO. As for Jeff's books, we talked when he was writing these years ago in vegas when we were starting the 125 PLO game at the Venetian. I read and discussed w him. For now, forums here and rio are the best ways to study the game.

Not sure why your getting defensive. I listed to what you are saying and am glad others chimed in. There is an old thread where sauce talked about live hands and hands like k568 and he can't fold those in live play.

You said it in this very thread:



Because of the condensing and non constructive nature of the responses.

Thanks for clearing that up for us

LOL.

You're dismissing a well regarded author on the subject (without basis) and I'm pointing out the fallacy of the argument.

Anyway, if the pissing contest is over, lets get back to something more productive.