I lost a lot of hands that I thought were standard and where I was in a great spot. I reviewed hands with a fellow PLO player via email this morning and he said that I didnt play that well. I havent won in a long time so I am open to anything ehre.



Here is the email I sent:

Starts with:

QhQsTh8d on a board of Js3s3d9h. He bets turn I shove he calls with AJT9. 9 River. $800 hand

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi Simulation

4,320 trials (Exhaustive)

board: J339

Hand	Pot equity	Wins	Ties
QhQsTh8d	78.47%	3,390	0
AJT9	21.53%	930	0

KsKhJs3d in straddle. I make it $25 and everyone calls. I have $275 behind and pot is 200. Flop is As4s5d. I check, short stack shoves $80, next ss shoves $150, call, call, I shove, flat, flat. Pot is 1,255. Turn 8d and 2 players have $800 effective. Guy shoves with 678T and gets called by A6xx. River A.

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi Simulation

516,094 trials (Randomized)

board: A45

Hand	Pot equity	Wins	Ties
KsKhJs3d	34.95%	179,748	1,271
a6	18.47%	82,412	26,174
678T	22.54%	102,202	28,584
15%	12.04%	57,486	9,516
15%	11.99%	57,303	9,374

Then I get KJT9 and an AQ8 flop. Amazing... I get it in 4 ways and A8xx wins with A on turn.

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi Simulation

600,000 trials (Randomized)

board: AQ8

Hand	Pot equity	Wins	Ties
KJT9	44.64%	265,327	4,966
a8	55.36%	329,707	4,966

Then final hand.... I have KdJdJs4s and its $20 8 ways preflop. Flop comes 8d7hTd and bet is $40 and a call and I call. Pot is 280. Turn Qd and checked to me and I shove $240. I get called in 2 spots. Pot is 1k. River 7d. I lose to Q79T and other guy just had a straight.

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi Simulation

600,000 trials (Randomized)

board: 87Tq

Hand	Pot equity	Wins	Ties
KdJdJs4s	82.12%	492,737	0
Q79T	15.81%	94,702	313
J9	2.07%	12,248	313

Not complaining here at all. Just want to know if I play poorly or if these were standard spots that I just lost in?

What is 4-5 hands in the long run?

Seems like a mental game + bankroll issue more than anything.

Are you adequately rolled for this game? If so, why are you complaining so much.

on a quick glance all the hands seem perfectly fine/standard

anything in particular ur unsure about?

When I sent these hands to my friend he replied with this:

Granted what hands you ran in to. But you don't know if your hand was best when you got it in with non nut draws and 2 pair. Zero hands you had the nuts. Zero hands you had a set. Just a bunch of 2nd nut flush draws and straight draws.



That makes me start to question my play and starting hands. I cant win at all lately, its been months... I either suck, am doing something wrong, or just have horrible run bad going on. I am willing to accept anything.

ur buddy seems to think only nut-peddling is solid play. These hands alone suggest otherwise for the games ur playing in.

Short-term variance online is pretty god damn long-term live. Seen the graph I posted in BBV recently? Both EV and results suck over 20k hands. How many hands have you played over these months of agony?

Not sure but it couldnt be that many. I have probably put in 100 hrs over 2 months so 2,000 hands?

Its just gross. I get variance and if thats whats happening then ok.

that cant be all the questionable hands right? also is your friend actually a winning player?

anyway there isnt enough info to really comment properly, but hands 1 and 3 are standard, nh. hand 2 i probably prefer betting smallish on the flop. maybe $40 exactly so we can reshove.

hand 4 i think is a flop fold 8 way depending on how many are to call behind us when we call. our reverse implied odds are through the roof here

2000 hands isnt a totally irrelevant sample live where your winrate should be very high, but its certainly possible to lose over that sample as a winning player.

These are the hands from the other night. Seem standard to me but he said no. Yes he is a winning player. The actual breakeven and downswing has been 6 months +. It is tough for me right now.

is he a live player also? what sample size/stakes is he winning at?

Honestly in turnnys (PLO) he crushes. But cash, I dont really know. I know he wins but I dont know what rate. I like my plays and most of my play at PLO.

Grunch

#1: you are cherry picking a couple hands that you were beat with, as if they were the single reason you are losing.

#2: in the first hand, you don't tell us villains suits. Hmmmm. Why not? If villain had top two pair AND the flush draw, that changes his equity up to 37%.

#3: Also in the first hand, you don't tell us all the action - just the turn. And then you ask us if you are playing bad. Without the situational details, how can we know?.

If you genuinely want to know how to play better, post individual hand histories here, and OMIT the results.



BUT If you are up here seeking sympathy for a few beats, go post in the BBV forum - they can help you with a sensitive and caring appraisal of your skill.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/54...rags-variance/

everything seems std except #1 it seems like a spew to me without more informations about the hand pre/flop and the villain

Hand 1.

I have QhQsTh8d in the UTG and I open to $5. We can pot to $8 but $5 does the same thing. We have 5 callers and there is $25 in the pot. I have a nitty image and viewed as a solid winning player. Villian used to play PLO but had br issues and hasent played plo and sticks to 1/2 NL. He is not good, he is not a thinking player (at least on a respectable level) and I think he is there to hit cards.

Flop is Js3s3d and its checked around.

Turn is 9h and I check looking to check call here. I think this is where I messed up. I do this a lot on turns where I am checking but I know I will call a bet. Villian bets $20 and we get a caller and I call. Pot is now $85.

River is 9c and I check and villian bets $80 and is all in. I am not lost here. He doesnt have AA or KK. He can have a 3 bet he bets the flop with a 3. JJ is likely. He doesnt value bet a 9. The only hand he can have IMO is JJ, J9, 33, 93. I can discount 93, 33. So now I weight his range to JJ or J9. I am getting a little better than 2:1 so I only need to be good here 32% of the time. I want to fold, I dont and I call. He has J9.

This really isnt BBV. I am losing all the time but I want to figure out if it is variance or bad play. Do I play poorly? Do I just get myself into tough spots?

Went to the casino Saturday and played 1/2 PLO. I lost 8 buy ins... I wasnt going to post here but I figured that since this thread got bumped I may as well.

A few hands stand out.

1-

stacks: Hero $225, V1 $400, V2 covers
I have JT98ss in EP and I make it $8. 2 callers and then villian (younger kid, reads a history book that is college homework and just came from 2/5plo after losing). Villian makes it $40 and we get a fish to call (Villian 2 is fish, he plays almost any 4 cards but has hit the deck tonight) and I get action back to me and it is $30 to call or I can pot for $150.

My thought process here. If I can get my whole stack in, pot it. I cant so if I call I can keep the fish in the hand and V1 probably has a premium holding here and wont fold preflop.

I call

Pot is now $150 and the flop is 346 no suits. I check and V1 bets $100 and V2 shoves. I obviously fold. V1 calls with J457 and hits an 8 to scoop.




2-

stacks: hero $300, V1 $600, V2 300, V3 300

I have QcQd6c8d and am utg. I limp and its limped to sb who makes it $15. BB calls, I call, and 4 others call. Pot is $90.

V1 is the fish V2 from the hand above. He will play any 4 cards it seems like and crushes the board so far tonight. He isnt good but pots turns and rivers with hands that I wouldnt even consider calling bets with but gets there.

V2 is a reg. He is pretty tight and solid. Doesnt make mistakes, ABC poker.

V3 is a NIT old guy. He doesnt play many hands and takes forever to make decisions.


Flop comes Qd5c7c. BB checks to me and I bet $65. V1 calls, V2 shoves $300, V3 tank calls, I call, V1 calls!

Ok, now we can see where were at here and I have to be in GREAT shape. Top set, 3rd nut flush draw, open ended. V1 turns his hand over nobody else does. V1 turns over AdAs7s5c.

Turn Ah!

River 3c

Ok, I lost obviously and V3 scoops. The hands were:

V1 AdAs7s5c
V2 7h7d8d9c
V3 AcTc8c2s

I didnt run that bad here but its just funny how it happens in this game. I left after that hand and said nice hand. I am taking a break I guess.

If you post results, it's BBV.

It's hard to say without looking at a "lot" of your hands, but based on what I've seen so far, yes, poor play. I suggest Jeff Hwang's Pot Limit Omaha Big Play Strategy as a good starting point - that one book really helped my PLO game.

As far as I'm concerned you really mangled that QQT8 hand, I hate how you played every single street.


I'd like to see hand histories posted WITHOUT RESULTS.

Ok...

My question about the QQ68 hand is more of should I even be involved preflop? Should I open from EP in a 1/2 game? Should I call the raise after limping? Once the flop comes its obvious that we get it in. But maybe I shouldnt even see a flop with that hand.

Above you said that I play poor poker and should read a book. But then you say I only mangled the QQT8 hand.

QQ68 is trash. QQT8 isn't that much better, and I wouldn't raise EP with it. More likely to fold it ep, and definitely fold against a raise.

Like I said post full hand histories ONE AT A TIME and without results if you want help here. I'm not going to comment further on hands where you posted results. You've been on 2+2 long enough to know this.

I personally find qqt8 a good hand in live plo. Maybe i overvalue starting hands for live poker. But i would play qqt8 online as well.

How do you rank qqt8? I want to know if we are way off about this. Could be an issue for me if a few people agree with you. There is a big leak.

QQT8 is junk. Huge leak. Read Hwang.

Surprised to learn top 5% hands are trash.

Almost all of the second hand advice I heard from Hwang's book was pretty terrible FWIW

QQT8 ss isn't a premium hand. It has multi gaps, oop not a great hand to raise with. OP totally mangled post flop - only had an overpair and called a big river bet on a double paired board. Pure spew.

Junk may be too strong a word, but QQT8 is speculative at best. It is not an early position raising hand. It's not premium, and it's not "top 5%" - if you think that you have a significant leak.

QQ86 is utter garbage, not even worth a limp PF, except maybe limp the button when double suited.

Yeah, I'm done here