The value of QQ in a full ring ( 9-max) MTT. How to judge this?

In 9 maxMTTs i have many times trouble deciding whether a QQxx hand is strong enough.

I know the differences in strength. QQKT ds, is much stronger than QQ45 us
etc.

Now in 9 max mtts often when I am short stacked I need to make moves.
Any AAxx will do. All but the very weak KKxx also unless there is heavy action in front.

But what about QQxx?

Can it take an aggressive line in rasing, or 3-betting?
Or maybe only with premium QQxx?

I mean this purely for MTTs, not for cashgames.
And full ring only and also only when shortstacked.

Call me a nit, but I think that, apart from suited QQ with two medium cards (i.e. straight potential), only AQQ and KQQ are playable - they at least block AA or KK combos. Otherwise an ace or a king will land on the board too often, pairing the bulk of opponents' ranges up.

For the same reason, AK, esp. suited to the ace, are more threebettable with short stacks than most QQ imho. If you run into AA, you'll have 30% either way, but when you run into KK, you'll have over 40% with decent AK but only about 30% with QQ. Also, when you're blocking AA/KK, you have a better fold equity from shorter stacks (you shouldn't battle much with bigger stacks anyway).

Another threebettable group of hands is suited broadways - again, they block AA/KK combos to some extent and do well when running into them.

Note that the range I've outlined is pretty much the same as the 4-betting range in cash games (as per Skodljivec' latest video on light 4-betting for Pokerstrategy) - SPRs are quite similar, aren't they?

The lack of hands dominating pre (and of split pots that reduce the bubble factor in NLO8) is why PLO MTTs suck as much as DoNs or multitable satellites. They're basically about saving and accumulating chips in early stages to be able to pwn the bubble with almost any 4.

interresting answer.

I agree on most.

But why do you bet AK unsuited as a shortstack?
Only to maybe hit a pair of aces or kings?

Without a suit and some connectors that seems like a losing play to me.
Youll be called by big stacks with any 4 cards when short stacked.
So IMO the starthand has to work together in order to get over several streets and preferably have a ( any..) pair for some showdown value.
And you will go to showdomn in most cases. And any high pair, including QQ, will be good in many cases

You talk about blocking other AA or KK. But this is only neccessary if another medium / short stack bets huge/ goes all inn.
If a big stack raises you just to push you off, or if anyony else makes a standard raise, then what to do with QQxx?

You further say a plo MTT misses dominating hands. And it turns into airpushing on the bubble.
But any premium hand: rundowns, double pairs, AAxx etc..
dominates the rest of the hands very strong.
Is PLO in general a game without dominating hands?

Because of no antes you dont have to play and can wait very long. In PLO mtts i win most by being very patient and very selective..

Please bear in mind that I'm a regfish in cash PLO and STTs (so maybe I'm overestimating the bubble effect) but a total fish in PLO MTTs, so your best bet is to create a study group with regs of your games like centebakkie, SlimyF, bizfishpro...

Meanwhile, you can summon this or this free MTT ICM calculator to see how big an equity you should have vs opponent's range to stack off profitably near the bubble.

I haven't run calculations but I really suspect (basing on the data for Stars 180-mans) that near the bubble and the final table bubble, you should have about 55% (instead of 44% needed in cash games) against opponent's range to 3b-shove profitably.

Note that significantly bigger stacks will open like in cash (or wider if they're competent) and call you light because the bubble factor is less to significant to them. A bad news is that QQ54ss has only 55% vs a top 50% range, making it a $-breakeven 3b-shove, and even a fold if you're OOP and are deeper than 10 bb (i.e. would have a significant flop SPR). Because of the bubble factor, the dominance isn't as big as you might think.

So I wouldn't 3b light against bigger stacks but would pick spots where I can press shorter ones.

thanx. I will post a new thread for a plo mtt study gorup

Join also! you are very intelligent.

you say you are a regfish. Well it depends on how you see it but then I am also one.
I am reading a great PLO book from Tom Chambers now. I can advice you this.

I will also make some ICM calculations.

QQis a trouble hand but because of that very interresting.

The problem in Mtts is spots come very rarely. It takes a very long time to have the same hand with the same stack size etc..

So good study/ analyses is neccesary to be prepared.