*~* Quick Checkup Thread - PLO flavour *~*

[daiquiri]

Originally Posted by coon74

Daiquiri, to estimate the equity that you're folding you need to count the area - integrate the right part of the graph

ouch i was afraid you'd say that

but

Originally Posted by coon74

If you have Odds Oracle, query it like bachfan has written in the 'Howto PPT videos' thread, I'm too lazy to copy it here.

wow I watched a vid where he runs that query and it's pretty sick. I might consider buying that thing, although it seems to have relatively few features over good old ppt to justify $90

[coon74]

Daiquiri, I don't think it has justifying features too, apart from the interface (I hope its author won't read that), nobody forces you to buy it especially if you're hit badly by BF. You can run the same query in the interpreter form on the site multiple times, just slightly alter the numbers in the query to fraud it and get different randomised results, then take the average of those results.

Now I'd like to check my line in a 3bet pot. The 3bettor is loose-aggro preflop (annoyed by my constant raising) but loose-passive postflop, his sizing is too transparent - he pots reasonably good hands but checks or minbets otherwise. So I think two pairs are most of his range, but I have some outs vs them therefore I float the flop and shove the turn improving my backdoor flushdraw. Is my line correct? Thanks!

Pot-Limit Omaha, €0.20 BB (4 handed) - Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

BB (€25)
UTG (€80.46)
Hero (Button) (€23.82)
SB (€13.90)

Preflop: Hero is Button with J, 4, A, 10
1 fold, Hero raises to €0.70, SB calls €0.60, BB reraises to €1.20, Hero calls €0.50, SB calls €0.50

Flop: (€3.60) A, 7, 8 (3 players)
SB checks, BB bets €3.60, Hero calls €3.60, 1 fold

Turn: (€10.80) Q (2 players)
BB bets €10.80, Hero bets €19.02 (All-In)

[Wolfram]

Your read is that he pots good hands, he just 3bet pre and then went pot pot on A78Q. You think you have any FE or are you just shoving for value and protection? Seems like his range is Aces up and better. You have about 35% vs that range and you need about 39% so you need some FE.

[coon74]

I think his range includes 8-7 too, maybe some TP+SD type of hands, but exclude AA because he didn't pot preflop (maybe I'm wrong in this but I have a blocker anyway), so my equity is a bit more than 35%. Post factum, I can say confidently that he 3bets into me like mad, at least 40%, that's close to my then perception of his preflop range.

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi Simulation

331,120 trials (Exhaustive)

board: A78Q

Hand	Pot equity	Wins	Ties
AcJhTd4d	38.07%	122,347	7,390
(88,77,A8,A7,87):40%3h!AA	61.93%	201,383	7,390

(Add smth like AT9 here and you'll get more than 40%.)

I certainly couldn't assess my equity that exactly at the table (I had no fold equity ldo), so I just gambled purely for value (in the sense that made hands would call all turns but fold diamond rivers, that's why I didn't feel like flatting; I shoulda flatted probably but, you see, I didn't want to fold blank rivers with such pot odds because that could spoil my mood, in addition I'm too fishy on the river with such pot odds, so I just got rid of my weakest street, idk how to explain this logically), but in the hindsight it's better not to blame myself for those several percents of equity (several big blinds).

As for exact decision-making at the table at the micros, I'd say it's not so necessary in breakeven spots, it consumes time and inner resources and therefore reduces volume, which can be more -EV than rough decision-making (it's a very good excuse, I forgot about it in my 500th post ).

[Envoy222]

I'd say he has mainly A8/AT9/AQ, maybe a decent straight draw+fd. Mostly. Jamming 78 here seems crazy imo.
Also agree with excluding AA cause of the pf action+the one in your hand.

As for the spot if your range assessment is g00t you're grand, but idk what I'd do in game, sorry!

[Envoy222]

Villain is 39/27 over 214 hands. He's only raised a cb in 3b 1/5 before this.
I'm always kinda curious what to do in these spots as the board is so dry & shouldn't hit him that much.
I'm pretty sure it's just a fold cause even if he c/r like QQ/KK here we're big dogs vs them, on the bad side of 60/40 vs pear+oesd, ~the same vs a wrap.
I'd def check back this type of board if villain were c/r happy, but he's not.

This is pretty basic stuff but just wanna check in case I'm missing something.

Poker Stars, $0.05/$0.10 Pot Limit Omaha Cash, 5 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

Hero (CO): $10 (100 bb)
BTN: $4.99 (49.9 bb)
SB: $18.69 (186.9 bb)
BB: $13.23 (132.3 bb)
MP: $28.63 (286.3 bb)

Preflop: Hero is CO with K T 8 J
MP raises to $0.30, Hero raises to $1.05, 3 folds, MP calls $0.75

Flop: ($2.25) 5 4 T (2 players)
MP checks, Hero bets $1.30, MP raises to $4.30, Hero folds

[coon74]

This is pretty basic stuff but just wanna check back

Fyp. If you think MP insolently c/r's with KK/QQ (then his c/r is much wider than 20%) then you must have already spoiled your 3betting image. Once your perceived range is wide, cbetting becomes less mandatory. If you're so afraid of being c/r'ed by overpairs then check - many cards, including overcards, ott will improve your equity so you're not that afraid of being outdrawn. Also you'll have an opportunity to bluffcatch - MP will bomb the turn and river with a weaker range than for a flop c/r.

It's more important how often MP calls cbets - if he peels with 5/4/OESD I'd say cbetting for value is worthwhile, if he's tight-aggro OOP it isn't.

I'm not a master of 3bet pots, so feel free to correct me. I'd check back here in a game close to never tbh because I'm weak, but I think this option deserves some attention and I wanna learn when to do it.

As played, fold to the c/r.

[Envoy222]

I don't think he c/r's with KK/QQ was just putting em out there to demonstrate I'm ahead of nothing!
I'm betting to pick up dead $$$ really cause villain rarely hits this board. But these spots could be good spot to check back a lot. There's a lot of good turns for our hand & most villains at this level would one & done turn, so if we turn good we can snap one off & we might river good depending on what the run out is as you allude to.
Also another small bonus is that it reduces our variance, if we check back the flop & he checks the turn again we can take it down with a very high % of the time.

I've seen these sort of spots come up before & in general if betting the flop doesn't accomplish much, but checking back has the potential to accomplish a lot then we should probly check back.
Although it's arguable whether taking down the pot otf amounts to "much" But it's not like we have bare tp with no back doors so this would be an appropriate hand to check back.

[J17ster]

Originally Posted by coon74

Daiquiri, I don't think it has justifying features too, apart from the interface (I hope its author won't read that), nobody forces you to buy it especially if you're hit badly by BF. You can run the same query in the interpreter form on the site multiple times, just slightly alter the numbers in the query to fraud it and get different randomised results, then take the average of those results.

Now I'd like to check my line in a 3bet pot. The 3bettor is loose-aggro preflop (annoyed by my constant raising) but loose-passive postflop, his sizing is too transparent - he pots reasonably good hands but checks or minbets otherwise. So I think two pairs are most of his range, but I have some outs vs them therefore I float the flop and shove the turn improving my backdoor flushdraw. Is my line correct? Thanks!

Pot-Limit Omaha, €0.20 BB (4 handed) - Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

BB (€25)
UTG (€80.46)
Hero (Button) (€23.82)
SB (€13.90)

Preflop: Hero is Button with J, 4, A, 10
1 fold, Hero raises to €0.70, SB calls €0.60, BB reraises to €1.20, Hero calls €0.50, SB calls €0.50

Flop: (€3.60) A, 7, 8 (3 players)
SB checks, BB bets €3.60, Hero calls €3.60, 1 fold

Turn: (€10.80) Q (2 players)
BB bets €10.80, Hero bets €19.02 (All-In)

Fold flop, given pot crushes our range. Fold turn too, we have no FE and are never in great shape.

[J17ster]

Originally Posted by Envoy222

Villain is 39/27 over 214 hands. He's only raised a cb in 3b 1/5 before this.
I'm always kinda curious what to do in these spots as the board is so dry & shouldn't hit him that much.
I'm pretty sure it's just a fold cause even if he c/r like QQ/KK here we're big dogs vs them, on the bad side of 60/40 vs pear+oesd, ~the same vs a wrap.
I'd def check back this type of board if villain were c/r happy, but he's not.

This is pretty basic stuff but just wanna check in case I'm missing something.

Poker Stars, $0.05/$0.10 Pot Limit Omaha Cash, 5 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

Hero (CO): $10 (100 bb)
BTN: $4.99 (49.9 bb)
SB: $18.69 (186.9 bb)
BB: $13.23 (132.3 bb)
MP: $28.63 (286.3 bb)

Preflop: Hero is CO with K T 8 J
MP raises to $0.30, Hero raises to $1.05, 3 folds, MP calls $0.75

Flop: ($2.25) 5 4 T (2 players)
MP checks, Hero bets $1.30, MP raises to $4.30, Hero folds

Firstly, you should never check here. It's a really bad check. If Villain is c/r a ton, then we can simply bet/call and be very happy. If villain is c/r hardly ever, then betting seems just as logical for obvious reasons. There really is no reason to check this flop back. TBH on this board we should be betting our entire rage anyway. You're going to put yourself in many more difficult situations by checking hands like these back, not knowing villains range when he bets turn/river.

I think bet/call is here is probably optimal. We're only in bad shape versus sets, which seem a relatively small % of a c/r range here. Against two pair we are fine, wraps + pair etc we are fine. We have enough equity usually to go ahead and bet/call here.

[AriS1337]

http://weaktight.com/4808435

what is ur standart play here?

[coon74]

It's opp-dependent, vs unknowns I find it correct to cbet the flop and check/shove the turn with most of my range, i.e. with any piece of the board, including the top set.

[Osterror]

This hand's result tilt's me a little so I'm confirming shove is good here ott instead of check back for free river? Villain is loose fish.

Grabbed by Holdem Manager
PL Omaha $0.25(BB) Poker Stars
SB ($12.34)
BB ($28.39)
UTG ($74.37)
UTG+1 ($26.46)
CO ($30.01)
Hero ($25)

Dealt to Hero 9 A 8 7

fold, UTG+1 raises to $0.85, fold, Hero raises to $2.90, fold, BB calls $2.65, UTG+1 calls $2.05

FLOP ($8.80) 5 Q 6

BB checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero bets $6.25, BB calls $6.25, UTG+1 folds

TURN ($21.30) 5 Q 6 A

BB checks, Hero bets $15.85 (AI), BB calls $15.85

[Wolfram]

Well, shoving is guaranteed +EV so I wouldn't be too tilted. You have about 31% equity vs a set and you need 30% to shove if he calls 100%. The question remains if taking a free card has higher EV than shoving.

What do you estimate your FE is? You think villain pays you off if you make your hand? You think he might bluffshove if you do? There's a chance you make the wrong fold on the river when you don't make your straight.

I think I shove all the time here because I have a chance to force villain to fold his equity and it's just the easier play. I might be leaving money on the table doing so though.

[lifes3ps]

given hes a loose fish hes paying off rivs quite easily, we dont have a kicker on our A, and i dont see vilian folding A5 here, so i check back, do a river dance. dotn semibluff fish unless u have great equity, and here you dont have great equity. a shove is only marginally +ev if always called (unless u think he can call w/ Q78 types). pots big and i dont expect fish to fold.

given that we only need to make like a 1/5psb otr when we hit to ever be more +ev than a check