I reluctantly had to leave Stars to play PLO, and I can't come back unless they find some way to offset the higher rakeback elsewhere (or I move up enough)

fwiw after milly+ hands of micro stakes on stars I'm quitting too. I've been a ****ing ****** for not playing on SVS when I can, it's like 2009 all over again there.

I love grinding zoom on stars but I just can't take loading up HEM after a PLO5+PLO10 session and seeing "Rake paid: $42.13"

This is horrible on so many levels and once you get down toward 2/4 the rake discussion also becomes extremely relevant. There is something really dirty and unethical about Stars creating a system where many HU matches will run in which neither player is +EV. If two semi-equally matched regs are forced to play each other at 2/4 because the lobby is full, then both players are basically getting fleeced by Stars and losing in the long run. I can see the appeal in the very near term to the idea of this, but in the long run it is detrimental.

Another large issue with this change is it benefits the elite players while helping NO ONE ELSE and especially not recreational players and new deposits. This is not at all about having a clean and less predatory looking lobby because it still looks horrible and obvious regardless of whether it is 30 people sitting alone or 60. It's basically a hand out to the better players while the recreational players will, over time, be playing a much tougher average competition than previously. They will lose either way, sure, but it will be less fun when they are getting totally destroyed in spots where they may not always have.

And don't claim it that recreational players are all dumb -60bb whales, and that lottery players are as good as the best in the world at beating them because that's just bogus. The vast majority of the pure lottery players are pretty crappy in all regards and have small winrates against very weak competition even if the most elite of them does well.

There are also plenty of recreational players that lose at relatively low lose rates and put in a lot of volume. While someone may have maintained a -6bb/100 and put in a fair amount of volume with occasional games they even have an edge in, against a tougher player pool they WILL lose faster, have less chance to win, and be less inclined to redeposit.

I fear Stars basically caved to 2+2 reg group think pressure here. Restricted lobbies like this are not a new idea. They've been argued about for probably 7+ years now and I always thought Stars very deliberately avoided doing so because they understood that there was very little positive that could amount from it in the long run and a fair amount of downside. The two biggest sites doing this now have dead HU lobbies and in the case of Party, whatever money is left in that HU economy is funneled to a very small player base.

There is a real problem with the lottery player inclined atmosphere on Stars and in online poker in general now. That problem is most definitely real and in no way am I denying that or saying it isn't an issue. But this feels like a change more designed to appease the cool kids of poker, the elite and well connected 2+2 regs and to be able to say 'we're doing something' than to go anywhere near a positive solution. This change has many downsides and very little upside. I believe a system where anyone can play anyone whenever they want and wherever they want is a better system than this. You're effectively turning poker more and more into online chess with a rating system where it is very clear who are the most elite. There is one reason, and one reason only, that online chess is not a big real money betting game and that is because it is so clear where the hierarchy stands and so players are not inclined to bet money in matches where it is so obvious they are playing a better player. All this talk of the most elite regs 'deserving' the action and making changes that lead to this simply contribute to creating a more transparent hierarchy that will discourage future players from playing even more than is already the case.

Nick, can I ask if this is a change that you are genuinely considering reversing if in a few months time if there is still a strong lottery player atmosphere in the lobby and recreational players are only worse off? Or is this a permanent change and am I totally wasting my time pointing out it's potential flaws? I'd really appreciate a comment on specifically that as I think all posters would benefit in knowing whether a debate is even relevant or if it is just an exercise in futility.


And great post hackprotech. +1 to these rake concerns. Especially at 2/4 and lower, the rake in bb/100 is really quite sick and it is not at all fair to equate PLO and NL rake when the avg pot in PLO is so much higher.

first i lolled hard

then i took a second and thought you might be serious

then i gave you the benefit of the doubt and continued lolling

POKERSTARSBOB: Guys im aware there is an elephant in the room but if you look next to the elephant you will see there is a grey mouse, what if we painted the mouse white instead?

Please contribute thoughts on mouse colours.

Yes don't mention the elephant.

Let's have a meeting to work out whether the mouse should end up white or grey?

Ok after much discussion and communication with the 2+2 community we have decided to paint the mouse white.

Carry on.

since its mostly about rake anyway, i have 1 thing that bothers me also. in stars rakeback calculations are always these quarterly and weekly freerolls included. as a ~european im usually halfway drunk and ready to get laid when these tourneys happen. and even the days im not, i have better things to do than playing at 20:00 poker on my first free day of the week(unless im working). im goldstar for last 8 month or so and i played these tourneys like 3 times overall. its such a waste of the rake i pay + it only benefits the guys who pay the least rake anyway. i know alot of plo player (like myself) hate to play tourneys for example. would be cool if u offer these tourneys as allin shootouts or so, i would play those every time.

Not sure what answer you are going to get from Pstars about this, but the actual reason why they are on saturday nights is to "force" people into playing sessions when they usually would not.
In other words, it's to try to make you play on saturday night when you wouldn't do so otherwise

Pretty much everyone hates the time of it but that's the reason for it.

I'm lucky enough to have scooped up $6k from final tabling one of those the one time I played it LOL

That is actually a really nice idea imo

its called PokerStars Ring Games Discussion Thread , but we all know stars wont work on the rake issue ever(maybe if the traffic drops enough, which woulda been happen already if ipoker for example had a better software). so i thought i talk about something else. saturdays are peaktimes for stars, or not? my mainpoint was anway that stars is givin away my rake to people who dont have to pay 15BB/100 rake at all but they they still add to my calculated rakeback even if i dont get it. so im fked twice, paying more rake then the whole tourny and nl regs on ~BB/100, and offering rakeback in a format i dont have the same shot at as the both other partys.
stars want to collect the fpps, so i dont mind paying them for a allinshootout. but wasting my saturdays in a format im -ev to 90% of the people is worthless.

Online poker will never be like chess and thats a pretty bad comparison. Recreational players like to challenge tougher players because they can creatively beat them whereas in chess there is no luck factor. If your so concerned about players losing money you can always play with play money. No rake there.

I can't think of anything more unethical than players avoiding all action in poker except fish. Why should a new player who watched a few dozen of videos on cardrunners be able to sit an empty table and wait for fish 40 hours a week while there are actual people spending countless hours working on their game using complex tools. Your basically saying that everyone should be equal no matter how much effort they put working on getting better.

Pokerstars should be ''rewarding'' the good regs because they are the only ones who play other regs and that is good for the rake. Hu bumhunters are usually playing between 2-4k hands a month whereas good hu regs will play 10-20k.

Pokerstars is smart and theyre main goal is to make money I'm sure, like any corporation. Why would they encourage new players (bumhunters) to sit an empty lobby hunting for weaker opponents when they can encourage action between good players by implementing a king of the hill structure?

According to you, good players will play each other regardless, so you're entire argument is hollow. The only purpose of this for the 'good' players is to get more hands with fish. That is all. In the old system, nothing stopped two 'good' players from playing 100k hands a month vs each other. Oh, but 95% of them didn't. Interesting..And oh look, the lobby is filled with people sitting alone and no reg matches despite it being capped. Interesting. These changes don't result in large long term action increases. They 100% result in recreational players playing a much smaller player pool of better players who make more money. That is the only long term result of this change.

+1

Of course this structure favorises the better players, and maybe good players are thinking about their self interest when they are asking for this structure since it will indeed generate them more money. But think about it, who promotes poker the best appart from tourney players that appear on television, it is clearly the elite of poker, not some bumhunter that plays 2k hands a month and that camp on all the empty 6 max tables. The better players are promotting the game as it being a skill game instead of it being a predatory environnement.

I have gotten more action at 10/20 than any other stake higher than 2/4, which doesnt really make sens, I should be getting alot more action at 2/4, regs have to battle each other to get a table which is good, we dont want a lobby with a 100 person waiting and one game running, that looks way to predatory.

It doesn't look predatory right now??? Really? There are nearly 90 tables of people sitting alone at these stakes with no reg action. Please explain to me how this changed the image in the lobby because I can't see how 40 people sitting alone or 80 people sitting alone looks particularly different to a recreational player. The message is pretty damn clear after like 5 or 6 people.

it looks better at least

We're taking steps int he right direction, progess is better than none.

this should get fixed

Why is it unethical? I can't see anything unethical in that.

Nick, are you planning on adding an add table button soon?

If you are doing KOTH, it is essential!

I can - forcing a recreational player to play against one of the 20 best HU poker players in the world, rather than a much weaker player against whom he would have a far higher chance of winning in any given session.

Because regardless of how much reg-on-reg action there is, the poker economy survives on recreational players, and the focus should be 100% on making their playing experience better, not fleecing their pockets to the top 1% as quickly as possible.

He can't think of ANYTHING more unethical than every single person being able to voluntarily choose their opponent in a HU poker game. How can you be so blind????

have to agree to alex, thats exactly the problem, fish will loose much faster and much more frequently then before where they also could play the break-even, small loosing Regs. Since option will soon be not available anymore and just the 20/25bb+ winner camp in the lobby!

I´m a bumhunter but not like u try to define one. Since i think we all are, this is how poker works! I still play monthly 20-25k HU-hands! Imo being a bumhunter just means u play player where u think u´ve an edge, that said if i play one in my eyes weaker reg i´m also bumhunting!

And as we saw in your initial thread in HS-PLO-section you, WS aka mr. snack fold, do the same:
should we get mad now and call u a bumhunter cause u avoid top 10% of the regs at 600-2k, no this is part of the game, simple as it is.

Imho i think Stars will shoot theirself in own foot if they make it even harder KOTH. Because then after a while there will be not much HU action at all be available. Recreational players, regs from lower stakes will just be not motivated anymore to cash in or take shots on higher limit if they are just able to play absolut elite and loose their money on such a fast pace.

can we pls not distract from the rake issue to much? Just gives him more stuff that he can answer to while ignoring the rake problem.

this stuff is about the future of the game, if they keep going further with what they are doing to the HU-games right now HU-poker will die!!!
Yeah rake-discussion is important but not everything - so plz don't be so ignorant with other issues if you for yourself expect to get a discussion on "your" issue as well.
May this(rake) is important for you but I´m sure the HU-issue is for others as well and since they just recently change the lobby ofc ppl who are effected by this will have an discussion about this going on.

Nick why did you stop posting in the other thread you created? You also promised to post in that weekly, but I dont even think you average one post a week there.

Would be good if you actually address questions and thoughts in these threads. Not asking for more feedback without seemingly reading trough discussions and cherry picking what you address.

Hopefully its good news from the meetings just pointing out that the last thread started from you didn't work out as promised. Very good that you want to listen, now chime in on our rake questions and concerns.

Shouldn't this thread be merged with the other thread mods?

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/38...read-1387155//

The short-comings of the previous thread were brought up and discussed at the meetings. As a result we agreed upon a fresh start with Nick committing to weekly interaction.

I didn't feel the need to merge with the previous thread, which was badly derailed and I take some personal responsibility for that happening. Any topic raised in the previous thread can be brought up again in this one.