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[PLO25 SH] 3way pot with NFD+TP - donk line
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03-11-2014
, 05:43 PM
03-12-2014
, 08:58 AM
I appreciate you taking the time to respond intelligently to my comments rather than just call me an idiot 
I will have to respectfully disagree with some of your points though.
That would make sense if we were AI before the flop, but there are still three streets to play. Thus my main consideration is not pot odds pf (it does matter but not that much), but rather how the hand plays postflop.
Still don't think this is anywhere near as important as absolute position. Regardless of who raised pf, people will generally bet their hands on the flop either when they like them or when they think no-one else hit the board (e.g., btn when checked to). So I'd much rather be the guy on the button who gets to see who likes the flop and who doesn't than the guy acting first not knowing whether the flop hit anyone else or how hard. Unless the pfr is c-betting way too much then relative position simply has no value here.
This hand is a perfect case in point. Hero flops a good but not great hand OOP. What should he do? Donk and probably have to fold to a raise? C/r and face a tough decision if he gets called or raised? There's just no easy answer and that is why this hand was posted in the first place.
And then on the turn, Hero is in a second tough spot. He doesn't know if villian has a draw, an overpair, 87, or is floating. Should Hero bet again? If he does he could be putting in his money behind. If he doesn't he could be giving a free card to JT9 (or whatever). Really Hero is in a ****ty spot all because he is OOP.
On the river, Hero faces his third tough spot. To bluff or not to bluff? Does villain have a worse hand that will call? Unlikely. Does he have a better hand that will fold? Who knows? Hero has gained almost no information about villain's hand because Hero was OOP the whole way.
Consider had Hero instead cold called the pfr on the button. Now he gets to act last every turn and gain information on what his opponents think of their hands on each street. He can call or raise bets, bet when checked to or take a free card. He can control the pot size. Hero's hand becomes infinitely easier to play.
I said close to 100%, but in any case it's not really relevant here. My point was to illustrate that relative position has less meaning here than in NLHE, where people are (i think you would agree) more likely to check to the raiser who is more likely to c-bet than in PLO.
It's fine to think this, but what evidence do you have that 40% fold to steal is too high? Are you showing profit with hands that are on the bottom of your calling range?
I will have to respectfully disagree with some of your points though.
Quote:
Considering the action in order is Hero, PFR, other villain. Which means we either get to see how the players react after the preflop raiser or we can choose to lead the flop. Which is the entire value of relative position, we see how the players act after the preflop raiser.Of course on certain board textures, the PFR will not be c-betting much and we will have to adjust.
This hand is a perfect case in point. Hero flops a good but not great hand OOP. What should he do? Donk and probably have to fold to a raise? C/r and face a tough decision if he gets called or raised? There's just no easy answer and that is why this hand was posted in the first place.
And then on the turn, Hero is in a second tough spot. He doesn't know if villian has a draw, an overpair, 87, or is floating. Should Hero bet again? If he does he could be putting in his money behind. If he doesn't he could be giving a free card to JT9 (or whatever). Really Hero is in a ****ty spot all because he is OOP.
On the river, Hero faces his third tough spot. To bluff or not to bluff? Does villain have a worse hand that will call? Unlikely. Does he have a better hand that will fold? Who knows? Hero has gained almost no information about villain's hand because Hero was OOP the whole way.
Consider had Hero instead cold called the pfr on the button. Now he gets to act last every turn and gain information on what his opponents think of their hands on each street. He can call or raise bets, bet when checked to or take a free card. He can control the pot size. Hero's hand becomes infinitely easier to play.
It's fine to think this, but what evidence do you have that 40% fold to steal is too high? Are you showing profit with hands that are on the bottom of your calling range?
03-12-2014
, 01:05 PM
Quote:
I appreciate you taking the time to respond intelligently to my comments rather than just call me an idiot I will have to respectfully disagree with some of your points though.
Well the last thing that I want to do is start calling people idiots.
That would make sense if we were AI before the flop, but there are still three streets to play. Thus my main consideration is not pot odds pf (it does matter but not that much), but rather how the hand plays postflop.
But if you read the sentence after this, I explain how pot odds ultimately do matter if you do not realize your equity postflop or make horrible postflop mistakes, which I do not think is the case for a hand like this.
Still don't think this is anywhere near as important as absolute position. Regardless of who raised pf, people will generally bet their hands on the flop either when they like them or when they think no-one else hit the board (e.g., btn when checked to). So I'd much rather be the guy on the button who gets to see who likes the flop and who doesn't than the guy acting first not knowing whether the flop hit anyone else or how hard. Unless the pfr is c-betting way too much then relative position simply has no value here.
Something also to think about is that relative position is important in that if we choose to lead it squeezes the original raiser because he has to think about the other player who has position on him, we also force players to play straight forwardly vs us. So I would donk a reasonable range in this position.
This hand is a perfect case in point. Hero flops a good but not great hand OOP. What should he do? Donk and probably have to fold to a raise? C/r and face a tough decision if he gets called or raised? There's just no easy answer and that is why this hand was posted in the first place.
Well you need to think about exactly what you want to accomplish with this hand. All options have merit as you said. C/r makes sense because we start to build a pot with our relatively strong pot equity and we also apply pressure to better hands with low equity vs a strong range, for example overpairs. I have concerns though that our equity vs a reraising range is that strong enough to continue and if thats case then it seems its a waste of equity to c/r/fold, where as if we can continue then c/r makes a lot of sense.
Donking makes sense for the same reasons as c/r but keeps ranges wider and as I said earlier I would definitely want a donking range in this position especially since I expect both players to not be betting this flop at a very high frequency with weaker hands. I think its reasonable to assume the range that stacks off vs our c/r is going to be stronger than an initial raising range vs our lead/donk.
And then on the turn, Hero is in a second tough spot. He doesn't know if villian has a draw, an overpair, 87, or is floating. Should Hero bet again? If he does he could be putting in his money behind. If he doesn't he could be giving a free card to JT9 (or whatever). Really Hero is in a ****ty spot all because he is OOP.
Not sure why you think this is a tough spot, unless your opponent has insanely face up ranges you will never know exactly what he has. So of course he could 87, overpairs, draws, maybe some weak floats, thats why its called a range. All that said, I would bet, I don't expect to get raised and I don't see any real merits in checking, the interesting question is we get a river like this that actually allows us to put signficant pressure on better made hands like QQ+ that are not boats, do we bet? I am not sure.
On the river, Hero faces his third tough spot. To bluff or not to bluff? Does villain have a worse hand that will call? Unlikely. Does he have a better hand that will fold? Who knows? Hero has gained almost no information about villain's hand because Hero was OOP the whole way.
He has plenty of information, he can probably discount most boats from the villains range, they are still a part of his range but a small part. If we assume he calls flop with the range we somewhat assigned earlier, so flush draws, straight draws, overpairs, maybe 87 but 87 usually has other equity so this is most likely discounted. When he calls turn, we can remove most straight draws unless we have a read he calls those weak draws, some flush draws, he continues with all his 7xxx that called flop, probably most overpairs and some combo draws still. So we get to river and his range is going to have some boats, a lot of overpairs, 7xxx, some T9 with diamonds or a 7, and missed diamonds. Most players probably fold weak 7xxx and overpairs without thinking too much so we probably should bluff but our exact hand is probably suboptimal for bluffing as we block diamonds, we do block an 8 but like I said earlier 87 is a very small part of his range, I would rather block the J or T9 and no diamonds.
Consider had Hero instead cold called the pfr on the button. Now he gets to act last every turn and gain information on what his opponents think of their hands on each street. He can call or raise bets, bet when checked to or take a free card. He can control the pot size. Hero's hand becomes infinitely easier to play.
I said close to 100%, but in any case it's not really relevant here. My point was to illustrate that relative position has less meaning here than in NLHE, where people are (i think you would agree) more likely to check to the raiser who is more likely to c-bet than in PLO.
No actually I would disagree a lot, I think c-betting ranges from competent players in both games are going to be about the same frequency.
It's fine to think this, but what evidence do you have that 40% fold to steal is too high? Are you showing profit with hands that are on the bottom of your calling range?
I will have to respectfully disagree with some of your points though. Well the last thing that I want to do is start calling people idiots.
That would make sense if we were AI before the flop, but there are still three streets to play. Thus my main consideration is not pot odds pf (it does matter but not that much), but rather how the hand plays postflop.
But if you read the sentence after this, I explain how pot odds ultimately do matter if you do not realize your equity postflop or make horrible postflop mistakes, which I do not think is the case for a hand like this.
Still don't think this is anywhere near as important as absolute position. Regardless of who raised pf, people will generally bet their hands on the flop either when they like them or when they think no-one else hit the board (e.g., btn when checked to). So I'd much rather be the guy on the button who gets to see who likes the flop and who doesn't than the guy acting first not knowing whether the flop hit anyone else or how hard. Unless the pfr is c-betting way too much then relative position simply has no value here.
Something also to think about is that relative position is important in that if we choose to lead it squeezes the original raiser because he has to think about the other player who has position on him, we also force players to play straight forwardly vs us. So I would donk a reasonable range in this position.
This hand is a perfect case in point. Hero flops a good but not great hand OOP. What should he do? Donk and probably have to fold to a raise? C/r and face a tough decision if he gets called or raised? There's just no easy answer and that is why this hand was posted in the first place.
Well you need to think about exactly what you want to accomplish with this hand. All options have merit as you said. C/r makes sense because we start to build a pot with our relatively strong pot equity and we also apply pressure to better hands with low equity vs a strong range, for example overpairs. I have concerns though that our equity vs a reraising range is that strong enough to continue and if thats case then it seems its a waste of equity to c/r/fold, where as if we can continue then c/r makes a lot of sense.
Donking makes sense for the same reasons as c/r but keeps ranges wider and as I said earlier I would definitely want a donking range in this position especially since I expect both players to not be betting this flop at a very high frequency with weaker hands. I think its reasonable to assume the range that stacks off vs our c/r is going to be stronger than an initial raising range vs our lead/donk.
And then on the turn, Hero is in a second tough spot. He doesn't know if villian has a draw, an overpair, 87, or is floating. Should Hero bet again? If he does he could be putting in his money behind. If he doesn't he could be giving a free card to JT9 (or whatever). Really Hero is in a ****ty spot all because he is OOP.
Not sure why you think this is a tough spot, unless your opponent has insanely face up ranges you will never know exactly what he has. So of course he could 87, overpairs, draws, maybe some weak floats, thats why its called a range. All that said, I would bet, I don't expect to get raised and I don't see any real merits in checking, the interesting question is we get a river like this that actually allows us to put signficant pressure on better made hands like QQ+ that are not boats, do we bet? I am not sure.
On the river, Hero faces his third tough spot. To bluff or not to bluff? Does villain have a worse hand that will call? Unlikely. Does he have a better hand that will fold? Who knows? Hero has gained almost no information about villain's hand because Hero was OOP the whole way.
He has plenty of information, he can probably discount most boats from the villains range, they are still a part of his range but a small part. If we assume he calls flop with the range we somewhat assigned earlier, so flush draws, straight draws, overpairs, maybe 87 but 87 usually has other equity so this is most likely discounted. When he calls turn, we can remove most straight draws unless we have a read he calls those weak draws, some flush draws, he continues with all his 7xxx that called flop, probably most overpairs and some combo draws still. So we get to river and his range is going to have some boats, a lot of overpairs, 7xxx, some T9 with diamonds or a 7, and missed diamonds. Most players probably fold weak 7xxx and overpairs without thinking too much so we probably should bluff but our exact hand is probably suboptimal for bluffing as we block diamonds, we do block an 8 but like I said earlier 87 is a very small part of his range, I would rather block the J or T9 and no diamonds.
Consider had Hero instead cold called the pfr on the button. Now he gets to act last every turn and gain information on what his opponents think of their hands on each street. He can call or raise bets, bet when checked to or take a free card. He can control the pot size. Hero's hand becomes infinitely easier to play.
I said close to 100%, but in any case it's not really relevant here. My point was to illustrate that relative position has less meaning here than in NLHE, where people are (i think you would agree) more likely to check to the raiser who is more likely to c-bet than in PLO.
No actually I would disagree a lot, I think c-betting ranges from competent players in both games are going to be about the same frequency.
It's fine to think this, but what evidence do you have that 40% fold to steal is too high? Are you showing profit with hands that are on the bottom of your calling range?
To counter your original statement. I think everyone who has argued folding pre has yet to give an even remotely reasonable reason that supports folding. The agrument of our hand is hard to play postflop is definitely too weak.
03-19-2014
, 02:10 PM
