Discussing my original preflop 3b with CZI, both in this specific spot and in general, do we prefer 589Tss to 678Tss?
Grabbed by Holdem Manager
PL Omaha $1(BB) Replayer
SB ($347)
BB ($110)
UTG ($100)
UTG+1 ($104)
CO ($120)
Hero ($101)

Dealt to Hero 5 9 8 T

fold, fold, CO raises to $3.50, Hero raises to $10, SB raises to $34.50, fold, CO raises to $114, Hero calls $91.39 (AI), SB raises to $194, CO calls $6.28 (AI)

playing around w/ ppt vs both AA, AA and AA, AA/AAK i cant find a reason not to prefer 678t, has 3% more equity 3 ways. and u gain 5% w/ t876 v Aa/QJT9ds

678t although obviously marginal, at 100bbs

deeper like 200bbs maybe i like 589t more but pretty close/trivial imo

What about playability? It could well be that 678Tss hits more flops than 589Tss, but when 589Tss hits, it hits more nut straights and more nut wraps.

obv stack size determines which one is more valuable and the relative value of nut straights vs hand equity

also you say about wraps but i think you give 589t too much strength as they pretty much both hit similiar number of nut wraps, given the only nut wrap 589t hits is 67 and 7j for a 9 card wrap, 678t hits 45 for nut wrap and lots of nuttyish/strong wrap+pair like 96, 95 for nut wrap and 97 98 etc that are stronger hands or w/e and hit more. als 89t flops jq and is dominated super often vs akq etc that people play alot of the time in their pf ranges so not rly like 589t is even all that nutty

it's more relevant when discussing hands like 9jqk vs 9tjk, much prefer 9jqk then 9tjk as we're gonna be making 2nd nuts vs nuts more frequently given the hand and the range of hands other people play. people tend to play high cards more then low cards etc etc, like t**j/q/k we are super happy with 9jqk wheras q**9/t/k can be bit more complicated

T985 seems superior for the top-end connectivity and post-flop playability

T876 better connected overall (if committing pre).. and probably becomes a dog to T985 when 4+ players see a flop

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi Simulation

401,918 trials (Randomized)

Hand	Pot equity	Wins	Ties
589xTx	21.64%	82,104	9,860
20%	26.13%	99,805	10,614
20%	26.16%	100,024	10,423
20%	26.07%	99,618	10,554

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi Simulation

418,814 trials (Randomized)

Hand	Pot equity	Wins	Ties
678xTx	24.99%	99,626	10,189
20%	25.07%	99,741	10,692
20%	24.94%	99,059	10,914
20%	25.00%	99,389	10,788

i don't think i'm getting the right ranges with this simulation.. 20% is probably too top-heavy.. however assuming it is true T876 is 15-25% better than T985

maybe i'm wrong on my original sentiment, interesting question wazz


edit: after running some additional simulations 4way and 6way against wider ranges it seems pretty clear - T876 is superior by a couple percentage points in almost every single scenario, regardless of the number of players.. T985 should still be easier to play on most flop however so with significant chips behind it may still be the better choice

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi Simulation

586,750 trials (Randomized)

Hand	Pot equity	Wins	Ties
589xTx	21.79%	120,419	15,086
50%	26.08%	146,323	13,685
50%	25.94%	145,478	13,666
50%	26.19%	146,827	13,915

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi Simulation

579,582 trials (Randomized)

Hand	Pot equity	Wins	Ties
678xTx	23.58%	128,224	17,178
50%	25.54%	140,980	14,344
50%	25.46%	140,541	14,288
50%	25.41%	140,279	14,257

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi Simulation

15,038 trials (Randomized)

Hand	Pot equity	Wins	Ties
589xTx	13.75%	1,864	419
40%	17.55%	2,474	341
40%	16.86%	2,380	322
40%	17.36%	2,443	346
40%	17.43%	2,466	321
40%	17.05%	2,385	372

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi Simulation

15,022 trials (Randomized)

Hand	Pot equity	Wins	Ties
678xTx	16.47%	2,198	569
40%	16.69%	2,340	342
40%	16.53%	2,310	359
40%	17.10%	2,397	356
40%	16.69%	2,332	364
40%	16.52%	2,305	365

^given that and i think 678t flops better/makes more playable hands, makes more nut /strong wraps and is less dominated in certain spots, [take the worst wrap fro 678t is 9j* bad but not terrible, worst wrap for 589t is jq* which is not very playable at all] i much prefer 678t in all situations

Is it standard to call with 589Tss or 678Tss versus a 4bet shove pre-flop in a (hopefully) 3-way pot?

sorry for the newb question...

That is also an interesting question.... it doesn't help that the cold 4bettor is 60/40 with 20% 3b (though only over a small sample), I think it's probably spew as is

we should expect to have between 28%-32% equity 3-ways so frequently the answer is yes.. the exact pre-flop action is going to really dictate it (and T876 is also stronger so should be more willing to call)

edit: in this specific hand wazz played calling with T985 is probably a slightly losing play, while calling with T867 would probably be marginally profitable

I agree that T876 is stronger in this scenario bc opponents range is heavily weighted towards "big cards" and AAxx, KKxx type hands.

But are the actual percentage differences even worth it? I haven't ran any numbers but if we assume opponents have AAxx and a high rundown (very high chances) I'm sure the difference isn't even 3% between 589Tss and 678Tss. I also don't think we have ~30% with 589Tss but more like ~25%.

I might come off as being a real newb saying this (it's my first day posting on forums since finding out about the site lol) but shouldn't rake also come into EV calculations here since equity distribution is so slim? How much is rake on 100PLO anyway?

One last thing: We also have to consider that sb cold 4bet range isn't necessarily high rundown, AAxx heavy since he might be trying to re-steal from the blinds versus very wide CO open and light btn 3bet.

Just my .02

at waht point are you considering playability? u showed a hand inwhich it got AIPF, whats this "in general" term mean? at what point?

I really think it's a nobrainer. T876 hits way more wraps (54x, 95x, 96x, 97x, 98x, T9x, J9x vs 76x, J7x, QJx for T985), flops stronger 2 pair hands cause they always come with a gutshot, and does better vs 4bet ranges both heads up and multiway.

if were talking bout playability mw (or hu) 300bb+ deep or deeper yeah id prefer 89t5 to a single raise or 3b, IP (dont think its a 3b unless ur deep oop w a skill edge and ds). if were talking where theres illtle more thna 4-5spr left post flop no, u gotta go t876.

id consider t895 better once ur postflop spr >8-10