Hey guys,

We find ourselves sitting on SB facing BTN open.

We hold one of the polarized nutty hands that play well multiway(ABBX suited to the Ace, AQQX suited to the Ace, JJT9ss, A765 suited to the Ace etc.)

I believe in standar situations this is just a call because we want BB to call and we want multiway pot.

Now what if BTN is a FISH oppening wide(How wide do you think is wide enought? 70% btn open+?) and stacking off too wide and BB is a reg.

-I guess how tight the reg is also adds to the decision, if he's tight we'll get HU anyway and if he's too lose we want him in the pot so 3b for the purpose of getting HU is not a factor I'd guess so if we decide to 3b we should only do it because we want big pot with fish where we know he'll stackoff too wide and also to take away a bit of his positional advantage.

Is there a point in isolating the fish with this kind of hands or do we still just call because our hand plays good multiways anyways and plays too poor(not smooth enough) for low SPR which 3b would have created.

Thanks, help'd be appreciated

This is what matters. Are there instances where we would still flat in SB to let BB in? Sure. But the overriding factor is not our hand, it's the above. I would 3b or fold nearly my entire range in this spot.

I'm not sure his actual open % matters much, but it makes us even happier to implement our 3b/fold strategy when he's opening too wide.

Thanks for the response.

Good point, one that I totally forgot.

I assume you want your entire range to be 3b/fold to avoid BB squeezing so all this less smooth hands become 3b even though it sucks it's just better than the next option.

Would you agree that if BB is passive only 3betting nuts then it's better to just call?

Sure but this contradicts our assumption that BB is a tough reg.

And not necessarily better, just more debatable

Yes sure, we've established that vs reg who knows what's going on or vs simply aggro guy it's best to 3b. So this was a follow up question where would it be ok to call if anywhere.

Could you also give me your thoughts on what sort of hands I should shoot for to 3b IF I WERE on BB?

Assuming people on micro/low stakes that are flatting from SB behind the BTN open also mostly call my 3b from BB then no matter if they are on SB. Whether rec players or weak regs.

Beside nut rundowns like BBBB ABB9 QJT9 QJT8 and such and good pairs like AATT KKTT etc. I wonder how loose I should go. Is like JJTT+ and like JT98ss borderline? What's you're oppinion on weaker rundowns like QJT7 KQT8 KJT9 KQT9 KJT8ss/ds?

I'm just starting out so I'm just trying to get some idea of what to do in this spots.

The hands you listed are all part of a good 3b range. I think the closest one is QJT7. You should treat JT98 as a premium hand that fits well in any range preflop. In other words, it's so good that you can use it to strengthen any range you desire.

3b from BB is much less appealing than from SB - we can just call and close the action.

The main reason we are 3b from SB is because we are manipulating who gets to play with us.

no, it´s our hand.

how do you measure stuff like "toughness of villain in bb"?

for starters, yes, we will be oop the remainder of the hand, but btn got a wide opening range, and when it´s our turn to act, we got a discount vs his open and bb still got a 100% range.

considering all this, ofc you want to have a flatting range in the sb. there is nothing "fishy" about it (if you know how to do it)

We are assuming our hand is playable, right? Otherwise our decision is easy.

Usually you can sense it, but stats like:
Cold calling 3b
check call and check raise
BB defend
Probe
Float
CO and BTN steal

Right, and by calling we nearly guaranty that BB will join us

Calling is an option with any playable hand. I am claiming raising is usually a better one when btn is a recreational and BB is a pro.

maybe

I'd like to clear some things up and be more precise.

BB is a pro.

This can mean lots of things since there are weak/aggro/tough etc. regs with different ranges.

1. Let's assume the reg on BB is someone that only 3b nuts I listed before:
JJTT+ JT98+ KQJ9+ KQT8+ KJT9+ KQT9+ KJT8ss+ ABB9ss+ AA-JJBBss+

(Is this ok 3b range in this scenario or do you guys see any leaks in terms of being way too tight somewhere?)

And SB is rec player that opens wide 60%+ and has leaks postflop mostly call/folding too much or
stacking off too light.

In this scenario with hands like A876/AKT6/A6TT/JJT9 single suited(to the Ace)

do we 3b or call on SB?

In my oppinion it's better to just call and let the BB in no matter what because our hand plays well
multiway and if we're gonna 3b he isn't going away anyway.

Thing to note is that we have a good hand that plays well mutiway and not like KJ67ss that we either 3b or fold.

2. Next point I'm trying to comprehend is that situation where BB pro is aggro and 3bets more than usual we
have two things to ask:

If we 3b will he call anyway with the hand that he was about to 3b or not?

Because if he does call anyway which I think happens most of the time then there's no point in 3betting
because we're not going to get HU anyway the only difference is that we'll have the initiative.

By BB pro expanding range I'd imagine weaker AAxx hands and maybe like KKT7ds or AT98 or AKQ3 or T987ds and such(speculation).

If BB pro does fold out some hands if I 3b that he would have 3b and squeez himself then I see an argument for 3betting.

I see this takes lots of mental energy to process but understanding it in it's core is highly benificial I'd imagined. If you guys are up for discussion I'd be great otherwise I dont blame you.

I've done some more thinking and the argument:

isn't relevant in this case because we have hands that play well multiway and
we don't care whether BB is fish or pro we like mutiway pot.

Second argument that we should 3b not to get 3b by BB:

Like I mentioned before if BB is aggro and 3b a lot from BB then things change
since we'd have to call steal/call 3b but then again if BB really is that wide we'll be
dominating his range with this hands and again do we really care that we're without the initiative?
We can still lead out and take initiative and relative position away from BB since he'll
have BTN behind as well.

We weren't going to make them fold high % of the time to a cb 3way OOP even with intiative anyway.

So this makes me wonder is 3betting on BB without like pure nuts best 4% or whatever even +EV
vs guys with tight SB flat ranges like me? I guess not.

---> The more I think the more I feel that like with this speciffic semi-polarized nutty hands we prefer a call from SB simply because
we don't care if the pot is either mutltiway SRP or we have to call/call 3b
vs wide range(vs villains nuts our 3b doesn't change anything and stuff that folds if we 3b we'd actually like in the pot).

The only TRUE ARGUMENT FOR 3B I see in 3betting because we dominate BTNs range AND he fights for big pots a lot and stacks off too wide lots of times so despite the times that we'll miss and xf because of the lack of smoothness we'll make more money the times we hit and make him fold some times to a cb and take it away.

You're greatly overestimating the impact of the bb in your 3bet/4bet decision. The button's range, and how the button plays is probably 3-4 times more important. All of the above hands have pretty decent equity against button, so we should default toward 3betting. You're describing a loose/passive player and that is the exact type of player where we want to push for thin value. If button is more aggressive, we can just flat out of fear we get blown off our hands with a 4bet.

The better BB is, the more inclined I am to play 3bet/fold with my SB range, since I generally just don't want him in the pot. As he gets fishier, I'm flatting with a lot of marginal good-mutliway hands because I want that fish in the pot. If he's really fishy, I'm 3betting because he's calling my 3bets anyway so might as well put more money in. But unless BB is a tilty maniac, his profile is only going to adjust my range slightly. Its the button that matters.

Nice.

Didn't think of how much BTNs 4b % affects our decision.

And this: made it really clear.

Although flating is +EV in this scenario by 3b we can push thin edges.

And I agree first we have to check what type of a player the BTN is of course which we've established that he's loose/passive so from there we ask about BB. But anyways great that you point out not to forget how important it is to look at BTNs stats first.

If both players are fishy recs we want to call to have both in the pot. If BB is extremely loose call and loose stackoff fish we prefer 3b because he'll call 3b anyway and we can play a big pot. If BB is not a weak reg but someone who knows how to steal pots etc. then we 3b to isolate.

---

The reason I was so high on rather calling than 3betting is that in PLO QuickPro by KasinoKrime it says that we have pulling and pushing hands and the above hands that I wrote were in pulling cathegory meaning we want more people in the pot and deep stacks to play to over-nut them. But if BB is a tough reg that doesn't stack off loosely then ofc no reason to pull him in since he won't stackoff with 2nd nuts with SPR 10+. But on micros where there's mostly recs I still believe just calling to get two fish in is the best unless BB is huge whale-then 3b anyways.

It only took up your time because you were unable to identify your opponents' skill level

are you able to do that? quantify that? put it into numbers that effect your decision?
we are faced with a btn opening from a wide range from a fishy player. we are next to act. bb still has 100% of his hands. couldn´t care less about him at this point.

I've got another question regarding this topic.

This time still on SB but facing UTG open.

UTG is a tightish REG. Let's say 22/16 just to have some example.

BB is loose/passive fish, completing the BB often.

What to do with hands like 9876ds T986ss QJ98ss or KJT9ss?

We don't really like 3way pot either because of the lack of high card value(we get flush over flush or top2p gets outdrawn) or for the lack of the ability to make nutty draws(mostly 17 non nut outers except for 13 nut).

But also it makes no sense to 3b with this hands to get HU since our range will be dominated lots of times(I imagine this hands being the bottom of UTGs open range?) and on top of it we'll be OOP.

So is this just some of the ****ty spots we can't do anything about it or am I missing something? Do any of you find folds with this hands in this spot?

I don't need to quantify a player's toughness to know whether I want him in the hand or not. A very primitive and basic poker sense is all that's needed.

You could fold 689Tss if you don't feel comfortable playing OOP, I don't think it's much worse than calling.

using these stats to show weaker players.....

Cold Calling 3b-weak players have a higher number i would think

Check Call and Check Raise- weak players check call more, strong players check raise?

BB Defend- here, are weak players defending too much? usually by calling

Probe- this would signal a stronger player, fighting for the pot?

Float- how would you use the float stat to work out a player?

Co and BTN steal- good players will be stealing a lot


am I thinking about these stats in the right way.....

cheers

To end this topic.

I've been talking to a fellow mid stakes pro and he said I should definitelly call this 9876ds T986ss QJ98ss or KJT9ss hands in SB vs good tight UTG reg even though it's not ideal that we'll be OOP multiway when also BB calls we'll still make good hands some of the time and 9876ds T986ss is definitelly call same as KJT9ss if anything we could fold QJ98ss because it's the worst of those.


This doesn't really relate to current topic so idk if you'll get any answers.

To be clear I believe your asking how do I recognise a weak player only via HUD?

In my honest oppinion you're not asking the right question because ...

A good reg or an aggro fish both can have high probe for example or both of them have high IP steal and only from xr stat is hard to determine how good someone is.

I'd mainly focus on 3b cold call and BB complte which is standard for typical fish to overcall if I only could pick from this stats. Otherwise also look at opening by positions and VPIP/PFR and you'll quickly see whether a player is weak or not.

Stats like float and check raise should be looked at only when you're in situation where you'd need this info I assume. You don't need it to determine whether a player is a pro or a fish.

I'm not sure any of these stats are necessarily good or bad but I was assuming the good player will just have tighter and more aggressive stats while the bad player will be splashy and more passive.

Float - if there is some stat like call flop -> bet or raise river.
That would distinguish floating from stationing