sorry if this threads been made 100x already,

been playing strictly plo for the last 2 years and ive began to notice how poorly I play when it comes to certain stack sizes like 300bb+

ive always read that if you can get in at least 1/3 or 25% of your stack in with aces then its correct to gii, but my question is does that same rule apply when your 300-500bbs deep and you get dealt AAs and you know your opponents will 100% call your pot sized 4 or 5bet cause lately i feel like lately its been leaking me $

e.g its 4 handed 1-2$ ,

utg (210$) min raises to 4$
button (735$) makes it to 15
sb (300$) calls15$
im in the bb (670$) with A7A9 i raise pot
utg folds, button repots sb folds, and i repot, button calls , we gii otf and i lose

yeah its a very standard spot but i feel like it unnecessarily will increase your variance

i know there are obvious board textures you dont cbet into,but how do you guys adjust when bieng that deep and playing those hands correctly? cause lately i find myself taking 1pair way too far.

yeah, pretty bad (that you are playing strictly plo for 2 years and are questioning this spot)

It's not a mistake to get as much money in preflop with AA as possible. This pushes an equity edge over other hands villains can have and lowers the SPR so you can make an unexploitable +EV shove on flops. The rule isn't to stack off on any old flop with any old SPR. Some boards you can get away from AA in this spot if there's sufficiently enough money still left behind to play for but I assume 200-300 BBs deep the SPR is low enough to shove pretty much any flop in this spot. Sure you don't win every time, but with low SPRs and AA you have a +EV shove.

lol.. i get dude, just like i said in the post its an obv standard spot , but lately its been losing me a shtton of $ whenever i get into these spots and when you consistenly lose over and over you start to question whether your overplaying 1pair, jus sayin.

yeah makes sense, just like i said when you keep losing with these types of hands it starts to make you question if youve been overplaying them or simply just running below avg, especially in a live game where your getting very little volume at 20-25 hands per hour at most. it can really crush you mentally when spots like these go bad and you keep losing, hopefully it turns around.

With this spr after potting I think there is a strong case for flatting pre.

you got in like close to 600 of your 670 pre with AA, seriously, do you consider folding ANY flop? would you reconsider the hand if you got in your whole stack vs whatever nonsense he had preflop and lost?

LOL. your not getting it, i obv wont fold any flop with little $ left, my question originally was if it is always correct to put in as much of your stack as possible in with AAs even if your playing deep, 300bb+ i totally get it man, its fckn standard , w.e

With crappy aces OOP, I think you can make the same arguments for flatting 3bets/4bets deep that you would for flatting a single raise 100bb deep.

With good aces, you should almost always be raising/reraising. Eventually bankroll management might start to matter, but I think that stacksize would have be absurdly large, like 2000bb or something.

I recall a pot I played against a friend some months ago. 900bbs effective. I folded to a 5 bet with AA82r knowing 100% he couldn't have less than AA in that spot and my hand would be in jail against AA with any suit or connected side cards. May have been a mistake but I was happy not to get 900bbs in with no equity edge and likely nothing but a hope and dream for a split pot lol.

Note: turns out I was in a lot of trouble against AAxxds

^^^^

yeah, its just a stupid spot to be put in , especially if thier really raggy aces, and your deepstacked,

@ OP

That hand is super std. The 25% rule is fine and it really mostly applies to hands like AA93r, not premium AA like AA97ss which you should mostly just raise and reraise and any given point (with some exceptions for balancing or for exploiting aggro players behind)

Every time I see live players post stuff like this with the premise "lately it feels like Im bleeding money", I cant help but wonder: What does "lately" mean? The last 20 hours, 50 hours or 100 hours? Because even if it is the last 100 hours of play, we are prolly talking sample size of 3k hands or less.

I dunno if this will help you, but I hope it does: Im a winning player online, I play my AA aggro almost always. My long term winrate with AA is about 500bb/100. My long term winrate with AA when I get to 4bet+ is about 1500bb/100. But I have still had 30k hand stretches where I was losing money with AA overall and +50k hand stretches where I was losing money when I 4bet+ AA. (The stretches are played hands, not just hands where I had AA)


What Im trying to say: In stead of questioning basic theoretical concepts, do you have a sufficient grasp on the variance in PLO and the implications of it? Not trying to be a dick, but dude, you are just running bad. Get over it and dont use it as a poor excuse to make poor adjustments to how you play PLO

Do you mind me asking how did you know he couldn't have less than AA in that spot? Generally a good player shouldn't want to cap his range in a spot (particularly that deep) - how do you know he couldn't have a premium DS rundown, or a hand like AKKQds?

Also, maybe this is FPS but if it was a HU you can always flat the 5b and bluff good flops and GII on rainbow unconnected flops. I guess if it's 900bb at your regular stake and you aren't rolled well enough to flip for that much then folding is fine. (but it does leave you exploitable to being 5b wider than AA if you aren't willing to get in weak (and presumably even slightly stronger AA)

I had played with this guy a lot and I am very confident that he only 5bets with AAxx against me although realistically he should 5bet a bit wider since I 4bet fairly wide against him because he 3bets very wide. Adjustments upon adjustments but I have just never seen him 5bet with worse.. Even if he does 5bet with AKKQds and other non AA, I didn't want to take the high-variance of stacking off in an 1800bb pot.

Note: although in saying that he and I once had a 2400bb PIT against each other but it was an absolute trainwreck of a hand.

call his 5bet then and play post or whatever
you only folded bc you weren´t comfortable of playing a high variance spot, but 4bet/folding bad aces is not the most +ev way to play that hand, just sayin...

Yeah mistakes were made. Turns out it can be hard to play optimally when you play 8-10 hour live sessions.. If I can use fatigue as any sort of excuse for misplaying.

Call 5bet and rep str8 on 789-9TJ. What else can you do?
Folding AA is a thing that i never made i think.

yeah, i understand what you mean, im looking at the short term results of negative variance and they are pretty std, i asked my brother who has been playing plo for quite a while about those spots and he lol'd.

Was 5bet cold to you? Because AAxx never has less than 33% against premium AA

~overun~

Couple of more questions about AA preflop in Omaha....

I was watching a NL5 Zoom video the other day and the coach said when the opponent is 100BB + deep that calling on the button with A A 10 7 is fine. I am curious as to why we would be calling? Should we not be 3betting 100% of the time with AAXX in Omaha?

Are there situations where calling with AA can make you more money?

Looking at some of the responses in this thread, it looks as though you would want to be looking to get all the money in with even with weak AA?

thanks for any help.

AAT7r or suited ace? Anyway, IP and OTB I 3b all AA nearly 100% of the time* When you are deeper you can have a much wider 3b% esp at small stakes since many opponents are scared to 4b AA when they can't get a low enough SPR to be able to auto jam any flop profitably.

Thus because we have a wide 3b range we don't have to worry about our opponents exclusively putting us on AA. But even if they do (zoom/no stats) 99% of opponents won't try and exploit that (and the ones that do you will make money vs them when you 3b a non-AA hand and hit a board they aren't expecting you to hit + they usually have a HUD and will figure out quickly you are 3b wider than AA only)

*If I have AA72 (or any rainbow/unconnected AA) and the blinds have a high squeeze % then I will flat. Might also flat unconnected SS AA hands if it's really high. This is a situation where calling with AA can make you more money.

And yes, we want to be looking to get the money in with all AA. No AA is "weak" - it might have bad side-cards, but it is still strong in terms of pf equity such that we are happy to GII.

I can see a case for flat calling AAxx hands in position some of the time. If the blinds three bet this is obviously a golden situation, and you will have played your hand deceptively, which is usually a plus.

* Hope this doesn't double-post because something went wrong the first time I tried to submit reply *

Aside from the points about relative strength of the AAxx hand (versus other AAxx hands, not against all hands) that have already been made, there are some situations where it might be better to call on the BTN with AAxx rather than 3-bet.

The most obvious case would be if you have a total drooler in the blinds that you want to bring in, who will fold pre if you 3-bet but probably calls if you call. This goes for any hand that plays well multi-way.

I.e. keep in the fish you have a big edge over and will pay you off, albeit in a smaller pot on the flop, rather than go heads-up with an equity edge in a 3-bet pot against a player you have much less of a skill edge against.

ah cheers guys great answers, makes a lot more sense now