Stupid Question.... so thanks..

You need to use both cards in your hand in PLO.
So On: 10 10 5 5 X board Villain cannot have a boat with one card he could only have a boat if he held 10 5 exactly? Same with flushes. same with straights?

Exactly.

How much do you usually cbet in a 3bet pot? Lets say you resteal, does it heavily depend on the flop texture? I usually make it like 3/4 pot but I have no idea if it's even close to the optimal

depends on texture, 2/3 is generally ok. You obv gotto c-bet more often and with bigger sizing when OOP.

3bet pots OOP can lead to many tough spots, so you should start with a conservative (nitty) range and just flat with medium strength hands.

I am looking for standard equity's for all kind of hands on both flop and turn

For example:

Made straight vs flush draw
made straight vs flush draw + overpair
Set vs flushdraw
Set vs 17 card wrap
OESD + FD vs set
etc
etc

Is there a thread or some other source where I can find information on this subject?

Try playing with propokertools.

yes I know propokertools but was looking for some basic chart of equity's

Is it a good idea to 3bet all double pairs in blinds?

Just go over some made up scenarios on PPT, the odds are likely to stay about the same. It's also good for you to get into the habit of running sims.

Not always, but vs a BTN steal, for example, they play well.

When you 3bet OOP, you prefer HU over multiways as a rule. vs a fish it's also good to just flat, bink a set and go for value. You can't count on them folding marginal stuff just by repping strong, so u should prefer hands that flop well often enough.

what are the best vids when starting to learn HU PLO?
I've played around 13k hands with good results(prob running good).
I've watched 4/5 PLO Fundamentals vids(gonna re-watch them cos they're really complicated)
I've also watched few episodes of intro to plo by roundtower.

anything else i should watch?

So, I was playing around in OpenOffice + with Odds Oracle to figure out how to easily make a sheet to calc EV of calling 4bets (never really used OpenOffice before so this is all pretty new), and just as I was done... I realized there's a native function to automate this inside the Odds Oracle program already -_-

My problem? I'm getting a different answer for the EV from the Odds Oracle than I do when I calculate manually / with open office. Could anyone check what I've ****ed up?

Google docs copy of the relevant formulas:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...2d5aklPYlhLdnc
EDIT: Seems I have to do something more than just copy paste to get the formulas to copy over... HMm brb.
EDIT2: Fixed. Discrepancy remains, however !!

What I enter into the Odds Oracle's PQL interpreter:
select avg(
case
when minEquity(hero,flop,0.3006)
then 42.75*riverEquity(hero)-(5.55+12.85)
else 0 - 5.55
end
) as EVCALL

from game='omahahi',
syntax='Generic',
hero='QQ33$ds',
villain='AA**'


Note: I don't know any PQL, this is cobbled together from a post by someone on this forum and some perusing of the FAQ (link: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...&postcount=145)

I'd really appreciate it if anyone could show me where I screwed up, thanks!

NOTE: Am aware that unless you set trials to some absurd number the % will fluctuate a little bit everytime you query (so the numbers I entered manually for, lets say, avg equity, will fluctuate slightly but the difference should be in the 0.02 range rather than 0.2)

So after re-entering everything (for like the millionth time it feels like), the numbers almost match up (0.77$ from Odds Oracle vs 0.67$ from excel). I'm still confused - -

Ok I think I got the two to agree after finding a couple of minor input errors and accounting for the -- pretty significant -- fluctuations in equities resulting from the relatively low # of trials I've got PPT set to.

is there anyone here that wants to chat about PLO. I currently play 2PLO. pm me your aim or msn details.

Could you share the PQL query with which you succeeded? Maybe it was a random success, maybe you indeed got how to do it in PQL. Read the help files at propokertools.com.

Lordhonse made a lot of mistakes in the quoted post, what hit my eyes immediately was the 'asdf' range for Hero that means not 'four arbitrary cards' but 'the ace of spades, a diamond, a non-ace and an arbitrary fourth card'.

If I understand correctly that you meant to count the EV of a call preflop - evaluate flop line with 30.06% equity needed to call, then your above query should look like that:

select avg(
case
when HvREquity(hero,flop)>0.3006
then 42.75*HvREquity(hero,flop)-18.4
else -5.55
end
) as EVCALL

from game='omahahi',
syntax='generic',
hero='QQ33$ds',
villain='AA'

My major amendments:

1. HvREquity(hero,flop)>0.3006 - Hero's average equity vs Villain's whole range on the flop (Villain's hole cards, turn and river cards are generated randomly many times, for every picked combination of Hero's hand and flop) - should be used instead of minEquity(hero,flop,0.3006) - the function that tells if Hero's hand has equity >0.3006 vs a certain Villain's hand which is randomly picked once for every evaluation of the body (i.e. all what's inside the avg() parentheses).

2. HvREquity(hero,flop) should be used instead of riverEquity(hero) - Hero's river equity vs a certain Villain's hand on a certain flop, turn and river, all picked once for every evaluation of the body.

E.g. let's imagine that you tell the PQL interpreter to execute the query from your post.

At the first iteration it picks QQ33 for Hero, AA82 for Villain and deals a full board J52-8-7. Then it finds out that minEquity(hero,flop,0.3006)=0 because the flushdraw is dominated and Hero's flop equity vs the certain Villain's hand is 14.15% (vs the whole AA range it's 44.61%), so 'when-then-else' is wrongly evaluated as -5.55.

At the second iteration it picks QQ33 for Hero, AAKK for Villain, deals the full board AK4-Q-Q, finds out that riverEquity(hero)=1 (Hero won) and posts it in the BBV thread because Hero was almost toast on the flop (HvREquity(hero,flop)=0.0022).

simulation doubt..

1. let's suppose I 3bet IP with QJ87ss and get 4bet from a guy which 4bets with AAxx mostly.. 100bb eff stacks.. total pot about 56bb...

So, with these stacks I need about 33% on the flop to get in right?

2. When I run this simulation on PPT, he tells that I have 58,7% on the specific example, on the question '' How often do PLAYER_1 have hand Vs. range equity of at least 33% on the flop.'' .. I'm simulating that right?

3. About that 58,7% number.. What is the optimum % I must have to call the 4bet?? There is some book/article/thread that I can study these calculations? Ty !!

I ran it as, so seems likely random success!:
(diff example hand this time, just the latest I ran. I'm gonna test yours, thanks!)
EDIT: It still fluctuates a lot but I guess just set higher # of trials.

Like using your code:
I'm getting an EV between 0.5 and 1.3 @ 2k trials o_O


@ So Old - that seems correct, then you choose 'require that PLAYER_1 have hand vs range equity of 33% on the flop" and select "Equity Stats" and presto, you get the average equity the times you have the requisite 33% on the flop.

There is no optimal number in a vacuum, it will change depending on your avg EV the times you do have 33%, and how deep you guys are etc. For instance a hand like QQ33ds will have 33% way less often than 789Tds but it will have WAY better equity on avg the times it does hit etc. Cant just look at how often you connect.

So Old, do what TianYuan said, this has been answered many times, cf. also: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...7&postcount=13 It's not the percentage of good flops but our average equity on them that matters.

Edit: as for a book on calling a 4-bet, it's explained well in the free 'PLO from Scratch' ebook by Bugs and 'The Pot-Limit Omaha Book: Transitioning from NLHE to PLO' by Tri Nguyen.

TianYuan, in your first query our decision-making process is simulated incorrectly because you make the interpreter assume that we know Villain's cards. In this case results are close because Villain's range is well-defined and mostly flops an overpair. Change Villain's range to something less predictable and more floppable, like 10%6h, and you'll get a much bigger EV for the first query because in the first case we can play perfectly knowing Villain's exact hand and in the latter we can't say exactly what he flopped, we can only make the right hand-vs-range decision but will sometimes run into the top of his range or get bluffed by its bottom.

PLO5, SB($3) is 30/10, BB($4) 16/4, CO($5) 35/10, hero ($5) 28/15 is on btn.

CO c/f's 55% of flops after calling a pre-flop raise.

CO open limps, BTN raises what range? What's the bottom of our range here?
Do we raise KK28r? QQ34r? As3s47? 5567ss?

Yeah thanks Im not concerned about how low the EV is (I expected it to be), but more that it fluctuates between trials by so much.

@ Your hand: I limp all of the above, and I dont think it's close for the big pairs. I dont think we can fold out anyone with a big raise so that means I wouldnt raise the small pair/run either. Only hand I'd consider raising is the suited ace, and probably not a big raise, just something to make a slightly bigger pot IP with a nut draw. But probably just limp that too.

EDIT: Misread, thought there were 2 limpers. I raise all the above vs a single limper.

I got a university degree in engineering and watched about 10 hours worth of video total, yet I managed to break even over more than 15k hands 10PLO.



This place is filled with housewives and primates clicking random buttons, I feel so dumb .

Has no one corrected this? In this example, T5, Tx, and 5x would all be boats, but only if the x matches the x on the board.

On TTT52, AK73 (trip tens, AK kickers) beats 5432 (54 kickers) because the paired 5 or 2 on board can't play alongside the trips. But any pocket pair makes a full house.

If i know for sure that when villain 3b's me he has AAxx (3% 3b over large sample) after i raise and have a call before the 3b, is there any point in ever flatting myself any AAxx hand ? (extremly low chance of this ever happening, but i had a situation recently and was thinking about it)

Im formerly a NL player and I'm thinking about making the transition into plo. I recently played about 13k hands at 25 zoom. Over that period im down about 16 BI in EV (Actually in just the last 4k hands im down 16BI in EV). I don't want this to be a BBV post, I'm just wondering about variance. Should I be constantly expecting variance like this in PLO or is what i'm experiencing a bit extreme?

On a strat note, Ive been playing around 26/20 w a 6% 3bet. Should I be trying to play a bit tighter off the bat?

16BI is on the lighter side, unfortunately. just lost 20BI on friday over 2k hands, lol

ur stats look fine, u prob got some post-flop leaks