Im sure this has been done before, but the search function blows. i apologize in advance if this has been discussed ad nauseum, if this is case feel free to lock mods.

i would like to see a discussion on the neccessary adjustmetns needed to be a successful PLO player from a NLH player. assume i am a competent 6 max hold em player with about 500k hands of nl and limit cash games, and around 10k hands of micro limit plo. my hold em experience is up to 400nl, and as a result of burnout i need to do something different. what must i know.

topics i think are important-
-the different values in position, ie can i lag it up in position like i can in nl if i am competent post flop.

-how do i play draws, should i be playing them fast as a result of the fact that my PLO draws tend to be bigger than my nlh draws, or should i work on pot control with draws.

-what is the one pair hand of plo, ie what hands do i need to make sure not to fall in love with if i want to be good.

-what kind of betting sizes should i use, right now i basically pot it unless i am making some sort of thin value bet or inducing a raise.

-what are the common mistakes that plo players make, ie donks in hold em cant fold one pair, open limp too much, call oop too much...

-is open limping cool, i basically never open limp, is that bad?

-any adjustments on starting hands i need to be making as a result of implied odds or their reverse that i may not be aware of.

-how much should i alter my raise calling range in comparison to my raising range. is calling oop as big of a deal as it is he.

i apologize in advance because im sure this is super basic to most of u guys, but id be interested in any assistance in the move available. please dont just say, it all depends, because no [censored] it all depends, but there are basic principles to most things and i would like to know those. thanks in advance for anything...

I was going to start a thread like this, I have a few questions I wanted to ask so I guess ill pose them here

Will respond later

Buzz,

Can you sticky the past NLHE to PLO threads? I think having to rehash this material every 2-3 weeks is not useful.

Chucky - I have to do something, but exactly what is still not clear to me.

The opening poster, Stu Unger, has asked some reasonable questions. And he's correct that the search function is not easy to use.

If I stickied all the threads people ask me to sticky, there would be too many stickied threads. However, I do understand your point of view. I really do.

I'll see if I can come up with something universal. But it probably won't happen as soon as some of you want it to happen. I'm very open to constructive suggestions.

I at least can lock all these threads, and they'll gradually move into the background. But I hate to lock this kind of thread, which asks valid questions, without coming up with some way for the poster to get the information by using the search function. (And I certainly am no expert myself in terms of using the search function or knowing the answers).

Buzz

Buzz,

If I get some freetime I'll go through and comment on these specific questions and the overal transition from NLHE to PLO. If some of the other regular posters on here want to argue or agree with me, I'm sure we could get some good advice and maybe use this thread as a basis for a new sticky. Just an idea. I'll check back later.

Thanks, sc000t. Good idea. - Buzz

Stu - Try this: Go to the search box and type "NLHE to PLO" (including the quotation marks).

You'll get a listing of 15 posts from several threads where this has been discussed before.

All of your questions may not be answered.

I'll unlock this thread to give anyone else a chance to respond directly to you, and this post will bump yours to the top of the list and give you a chance to get a better response - but if the comments get abusive, as they have a tendency to do in this kind of post, I'll lock it again.

Buzz

thanks for being and cool and proactive about this, bro. those threads were helpful, but my problem is that many of them were super duper basic. this is cool for playing the micros. my hope was to have an more in depth discussion of the differences in play and style in the two games...

It depends

Regarding playing draws, How you play them is opponent dependent as well as position dependent. Players who fold bare ttp to pressure you can play draws harder against. Players who wont fold you can call against. If you are OOP you may choose to get it allin on the flop to reduce the difficulty of playing OOP. OTOH, you may choose to play your draws slowly OOP against a LAG because if you hit on the turn you may be able to check-raise for more chips.

Additionally, chip stack depths affect how you should play draws. The shallower you are the more reason you have for getting allin on the flop.

In short......It depends

i see where this is going, and i can see why it probably should just be locked, but because i am genuinely interested in having this discussion i will expound on the question of playing draws.

obviously there are many different variables in how to play a draw, i didnt just hop off the short bus, and am aware of this. The variables u point out are the exact same variables that a player would need to entertain when playing a draw in he. The difference in playing a draw in plo is that the hand values go way up or down depending on how you look at it. Getting dealt 4 cards means that you are likely to flop bigger draws, and your opponent is likely to flop bigger hands, and these variables completely skew hand ranges and such. So how do u combat this??? Is it more optimal to play draws faster as calling ranges go way up, or is better to try and play smaller pots with draws because its pl and the likelihood of villains having hands goes way up. So im not asking if I should always play AsAh9s8h really fast on a Th6hQc board. Im asking how i should play draws in comparison to in he. if its exactly the same, then just explain it to me and ill be very appreciative…

dont have time right now to go into all these questions but a few very important things imo:

dont play aces like you have aces when u cant get like at least 40% of your stack in preflop. what im saying is: if your style is to reraise a lot of quality hands in position its fine to do it with aces too, i wouldnt recommend reraising out of position too much and especially not only with aces. its very profitable to call a reraise from someone who is marked with aces and probably cant let them go postflop with almost any 4 you open raised with

how fast you play your draws depend on a lot of things such as stacksize style of opponent quality of the draw etc, so its hard to give a clear answer to that

dont overvalue 2 pair and small sets. again this depends on the situation but especially bottom 2 pair is not very strong unless you are up against a single opponent and he is marked with aces. top2 and small sets are quite playable but you want the pot to be medium sized so i wouldnt recmmond raising or check-raising with it since most of the time all the money is going in the middle your opponent will either have a premium draw which is close to even money anyway or a set in which case you are really crushed. if you have some kind of a combo hand, like top2 pair and a small flushdraw you may choose to play it agressively against one opponent since its hard to be in bad shape here, its very unlikely he has a better made hand and a better draw then you.

analyse your play, after a session i review the bigger hands in pokertracker (you can check the winning expectation and the pot odds in the replayer window) and look if i made the right plays.

You are asking about the optimal way to play draws, correct?
The optimal way to play any hand is likely to be a mixed strategy. One of the main posters in this forum, Ribbo, often advocates playing draws slowly on the flop if you suspect villian has a set. The rationale in my interpretation is simple. If hero makes a straight or flush on the turn, the villian is likely to want to see river anyway because he has 10 outs to fh. However if the board pairs hero can gladly get away. That said, there are times when players should play large draws like set/ttps. By playing your draws this way you will make your villians guess what your hand is and take advantage when he guesses wrong.
Many players are willing to felt nut flush draws on the flop because it takes difficult decisions out of the equation.

In summary, if playing your draws quickly fits your overall game strategy go for it. Understand that part of the value of playing draws quickly comes in the form of fold equity.
Finally, when you ask a theoretical question expect a theoretical answer.

When I made the switch to playing PLO as my main game, I had played NLHE cash 3/6 and lower for a few years. Also played stud 5/10 and some 10/20, all on Pacific poker. I had a little 2/4 and lower PLO but nothing serious, as I could just nut peddle and win against those bad players.

The first things that really stuck in my mind as it related to PLO were “In NLHE you play for pairs and two pairs, where as in PLO you play for straights and flushes.” I’m not sure where I heard/read it, but it just made sense to me. A ton of money that I was winning in the bad Pacific games were NLHE players stacking off with AAxx. It would be the only hand they’d raise preflop and they’d stack off on almost any flop not realizing the different dynamics of PLO. The other saying, I guess, that got my mind on track in PLO was “Its not uncommon at all to raise (or reraise) preflop in PLO and check/fold the flop; whereas in NLHE this happens much much less.”

Both those little sayings, if you will, kind of helped my mind switch from thinking like a NLHE player to a PLO player. I’m not saying they are set in stone and 100% accurate but it gets you mind thinking in the right direction.

From there I would just play all shorthanded games on Pac until they shut me out because of the legislation. I switched to stars and built another roll up from nothing using PLO. Play was bad, but not idiotic like on Pacific and I had to tweak my game up. I quickly realized that at a table full of nut peddlers, its just a bunch of people trying to out cooler one another and that in the long run, there would be no significant winner, aside from PokerStars. I started playing shorthanded games (pre HU tables) and lagging up my play.

About here is where I learned that you NEED to be adaptable to play PLO. Its probably one of the biggest, most important traits a PLO player can have. Theres no 100% correct way to play all of the time, you need to be aware of the table dynamics and your image and adjust accordingly. Some games are going to be deep stacked, some will be ultra aggressive, some will only have one fish on you left etc.. and all these things should come into effect when you make your decisions. Sometimes its appropriate to nut pedal and sometimes you need to go ultra lag on a table. Like chucky said, it all depends.

I guess that’s the quick story of my transition to PLO. Right now, most of my play is at the HU tables, but am currently making my way back to some 6max games to be a more rounded player.

As far as your specific questions in your post:

Most of the questions are vague, but I’ll do best in answering them. The table conditions/dynamics just really come into play to get into specifics.

-the different values in position, ie can i lag it up in position like i can in nl if i am competent post flop.

Preflop hand values are pretty meaningless in PLO for the most part (Yeah, you heard me). You need to play hands that work together yes, but I think that your hand selection compared to the flop is much more important than what you choose to raise and call with preflop.

Position is HUGE in PLO. Especially in agro games, the ability to control the hand post flop is essential to a players success in PLO. Learning to 3bet in position will add a ton of value to your game, and you don’t necessarily need the best hand to do this with either.


-how do i play draws, should i be playing them fast as a result of the fact that my PLO draws tend to be bigger than my nlh draws, or should i work on pot control with draws.

Again, like chucky said, it depends. Everything comes into play when playing draws, how many opponents in the game, how many in the hand, stack sizes, player reads, player positions, preflop action, what sort of draw is it….. This question could be answered 20 different ways depending on the situation.

In general with big draws, I play them aggressively… in general. Especially if I’m OOP, I like to lead out so if it comes I can still value bet down and have my hand not so face up, or even check it and see if I can get a smaller draw or a bluff to bet into me. Try not to chase non nut hands, and if say you’re faced with two players all in and you have the second nut flush draw, take note that theres a reasonably good possibility that you could be drawing slim against the NFD.


-what is the one pair hand of plo, ie what hands do i need to make sure not to fall in love with if i want to be good.

Def AAxx. You need to realize that AA really won’t hold up a large % of the time by the river. More people lose money on AAxx than any other hand, and I’d bet that most novice players probably lose more than they win with it. I tend to play this hand cautious post flop, just because unless I’ve been at a table awhile, or I’m with familiar opponents, AAxx is the first hand you’re put on when you 3bet and if that’s what you actually have, it makes it very difficult to play post flop.

-what kind of betting sizes should i use, right now i basically pot it unless i am making some sort of thin value bet or inducing a raise.

This is argued a lot. I’d say, do whatever you’re comfortable with, but be consistent. I personally don’t bet pot. I pot preflop for raises, but post flop, all my bets are slightly less than pot. I think players always pot, because PLO is such a drawy game and they want maximum value from their made hands, and maximum fold equity with their draws. At least, that’s why I think players start to use the “always bet pot” mentality. I like playing smaller pots, I’m not very worried about being outdrawn because I believe I have a good enough ability to just c/f when draws get there and not lose more money. Also I like the ability to play slightly smaller pots on the flop and turn, where it leaves more money on average in the stacks by the river so there’s more play and more value weighted on the decisions. It’s really just a preference thing though, just be sure to stay consistent in your betting.

-what are the common mistakes that plo players make, ie donks in hold em cant fold one pair, open limp too much, call oop too much...

Chasing non nut hands comes to mind first, especially in multi way pots. Only raising preflop with a SMALL % of hands (mostly AAxx) is the other. To raise and reraise in this game, you need to mix up your hands so its no face up post flop. The ability to lay down the second nuts is something many NLHE players can never do. And bluffing, yes bluffing. This game is easier to bluff in and there are perfect spots against the right opponents. Using blockers etc… are just things you don’t think about in NLHE that come into play in PLO. Playing small pairs for set value is another no no.


-is open limping cool, i basically never open limp, is that bad?

I almost never open limp. I think most players on 2p2 would agree that it rarely should be done in most games.

-any adjustments on starting hands i need to be making as a result of implied odds or their reverse that i may not be aware of.

Play hands that work together. Hands that work in more than one way are great ie suited connecting cards. TT89ss for example has good possibility to make a wrap, flush, set or draws to all three even. Post flop, you want possibilities, try to avoid playing A722ss just because the A is suited, yes its good to have the suited ace, but you’re going to want other options when the flop comes.

-how much should i alter my raise calling range in comparison to my raising range. is calling oop as big of a deal as it is he.

Calling OOP is a big deal. Its hard to play draws and semi strong hands OOP in general. You’re open raising range should be larger than your calling raises range I think. In MP,CO, BTN if I can open raise, I look for almost any reasonable excuse to. I like to keep an agro image up and like to take control going into preflop hands and I want to be in position against as few opponents as possible. What I’m trying to say is, its easy for me to open raise a large % of hands. But to call someone elses open raise, I tend to tighten up, ESPECIALLY OOP. Also, exercise caution in raising and reraising from the blinds. Until you develop a good sense of how to play OOP against multiple opponents in raised pots, I’d advise playing very tight in the blinds, unless you’re short stacked.




Alright, I have to go study. Sorry if for the spelling errors, I flew through this pretty quick and I’m sure I missed some stuff. Hope this helps.

dude u r a god among men. this is what i wanted. i think this should be linked in the sticky...

ScOOOt, awesoem stuff. Very helpful to someone new to PLO like me. That said, I have a couple of noob questions.

In NLHE, a good chunk of why you raise preflop is stealing blinds and the continuation bet. In PLO, the flop is such a big factor, it seems like a continuation bet isn't the norm? There was a statement earlier in your post about it being perfectly normal to raise preflop in PLO and then check/fold the flop.

If the above is accurate (which it may obviously not be), what are the reasons for never open-limping in PLO?

These get me into trouble. One of the no-nos is chasing not nut flushes, yet these types of hands put you in that exact spot. It seems like connected is worth more than suited with these types of hands?


[/quote]

Open limping can be bad at aggro tables if :
1) you do it with moderate strength to marginal hands that play worse OOP and want to see the pot cheap
2) You are limping hands with non-nut draws such as j987ss
3) Open limping invites further limping and since one raise wont clear out all the limpers, you will be playing a weak hand multi-way. That is a good way to loose your stack.
4) Raising in early to middle position may allow you to clear out players behind you, thereby giving you the button.

bogey,

I don't like open limping because I don't like playing pots with multiple opponents. Typically, when someone open limps, it brings in more limpers and then even if someone raises behind, if one calls, they all call. I just don't like trying to out flop 5 other players in multiway pots constantly. Also, I don't like to seperate my preflop ranges into two categories of limping or raising. I want them all grouped together so I play all the hands I elect to play the same way preflop. I find that it makes it harder to read my hand postflop since I haven't defined it as a hand that I'd limp with vs a hand I'd open with.

The statement about raising preflop and check/folding on the flop is just an example of how different PLO is from NLHE. You'll definately check/fold more flops you limp with than when you open raise, thats for sure.

Basically, when you limp, your just trying to outflop the other limpers because multi way limped pots tend to tighten up the other players and its just not really good for long term results to try and "outflop" other players. You want to take control of the pots heading into the flop because it will make it easier for you to play postflop. If you're limping, your not too sure what the other players are putting you on, and what they think you think they have etc... theres just a lot of guess work that comes with limping as well that I just don't like to do.



The TT98ss hand was just and example of a non AAxx/KKxx/AKQJ type hand that I play aggressively preflop. Most players know the obvious good starting hands but theres definately others that you can incororate into your game to mix into your preflop range of raising and reraising. I used the TT98ss hand because it gives you options. I wouldn't chase this hand down if the flop was Ks2s5x for just a naked FD. But on flops like 6s7s3x for example, even if your up against the nut straight, the nut flush draw or another set, you have decent outs in any direction giving you more options of playing and winning the hand.

Connected is worth more than suited, I would aggree. Its hard to get big time value after you hit a T hi flush or lower because players instanly recognize that theres a possible flush on board. But its just always nice to either have other outs, or blockers to better draws. And don't get me started on freerolling people. Nothing feels better when you get a player all in when you both hold the nut straight and you have top set for a free shot at pairing the board.