Hi guys!
I decided to post for the first time on 2 + 2, because I'm in some desperation, and I do not understand how to react to what is happening.

I'm new to Omaha, but I have a lot of experience in NL Holdem 10-200 (about million hands)
I started playing Omaha on one small site and faced one problem - even with a very tight VPIP and WTSD my WSD% is much worse, than those of my very loose opponents.

So, i try to understand - it's simple bad streak / short distance, or something bad with this site.
I made a sample of 20 people who have a minimum of 2000 hands played - 10 of them lose the most, 10 - most winners.



As you can see, even worst players saw SD in 3 times more often than me, and on average show ~50% WSD.
Top 10 best winners saw SD in 2.5 times more often than me, and show ~ 54% WSD.

My stats:


As i can see in Holdem manager, Median VPIP there is 69.2, so i try to play tight, and dominate them, but it does not work. With their VPIP * WTSD they reach showdown 3-7 times more often than I, and still win more often. Typical opponent for which I am a donor:



VPIP * WTSD = 87.2 * 38.2 = 3331. So, he saw SD ~ with 33% of ALL his hands, and have 51.4% WSD... Of course 650 hands is nothing - but he is not the only one who I pay money to. There are many of those.


I played 19200 hands, it's not a long distance, BUT - my opponents see showdown not 10-20-50% more often than I, but 3-7 times, and thus their WSD > My WSD. Is this normal in terms of mathematics at this distance or do I need to escape from there?

Ty, and sorry for my english, pls.

NLHE player switching to and losing at PLO over that huge 19k hand sample, site is definitely rigged

z0mgtiltz - I understand your irony. Let me put the question differently:
2 players, first have 19K hands, second - 60K+. First have Vpip 20 and WTSD 20, second VPIP 20 and WTSD 50. WSD of first player is significally smaller then second.

Is this normal from a mathematical point of view? How strong can a mathematical deviation be?

Just because you go to showdown less often dosent mean you automatically should win at showdown. Especially in PLO were nuts changes every street and you go multiway to the flop and river a lot. Try to grasp also how much bigger PLO is than hldm just by starting hands alone, and in that sense you have barely had AA cracked once for hldm reference. So card distribution can get insanely skewed for periods for some players just because that is the nature of the beast.

Why would the site target you specifically?

With that said if it continues for the next half million hands then yeah you can start to worry

There is one small nuance in my game. This site is only for Italian players, and I am not an Italian citizen, and play under Italian VPN. It worries me a little

It is about -600 stacks, with the current tempo of loosing (-12bb/100). A smaller distance is not enough? ))

Welcome to the great game of pot limit omaha where you can crush 50k hands in a row then get crushed 50k hands in a row

you're losing at -12 bb/100, of course your WSD % is going to be low

The fact that you are using a 19k sample to do a calculation says way more about you than plo vs nlhe

So in your universe they can detect that you are playing on a VPN, but instead of banning your account they give you bad beats?

Well then they can "steal" all the money before they ban him?

If your winrate is -12/100 in micros its not unreasonable that you dont understand PLO and should loose more at showdown. A low VPIP does not equal winning. I would rather pick up a some of Hwangs books or the online PLO from scratch by Bugs to learn more.

There is not incentive for a site to rig the game one player vs another. Players might collude etc but the site is there to generate rake and to do that they need players playing. Players wont play if if the site is rigged.

Can they be targeting you? Sure and you can call to hit runner runner quads to but it is very very unlikely!

Just based on the stats you provided (which aren't necessarily the best ones to look at) you probably should be expecting to lose, tbh your real expected winrate at 10PLO is almost certainly negative and might even be negative in a 0 rake environment as well. Learn to play the game reasonably well vs the competition you are playing before expecting to win.

21/13/5 unable to win at 10 in a 0 rake environment? Seaking are you on drugs

The recurring theme seems to be your sample is too small. There's no doubting that. Also, your 7th biggest winner has an 83% VPIP!

At no point in my post did I mention anything about VPIP/PFR/3bet%.

Guys - please, drop all your irony!
I asked a simple question:
I reach the showdown with 5 out of 100 hands that the game room gives me and win in 46%, my opponents with 15-30 and win in 50+%. A simple question, nothing more. What should be the sample to say with confidence that the situation is somewhat strange?

Those who talk about the quality of the game. Your ideas how to increase WTSD in 3 times, and at the same time have an WSD> 50, if it is now 46? After all, my opponents do it! Or do you think that I always throw out the nuts and go to the river with ****?
Dont forget that middle VPIP there is > 70 - they are not godlike players, so when i begin to play ther i hope that their mistakes > my mistakes.



Piece of my previous Holdem game:


Of couse i know that Omaha quite a different game. I read books on it, watched the VODS, that's why I'm asking you this question, because in Hold'em even at such a short distance as 19200 hands I would have already ripped the field with middle VPIP = 76.
Such a field would be just a fairy tale for me!, Not at all -12 bb.

So if you play vs a table of 50-100 VPIP and think its weird that you dont win as much at shdn you should understand that those garbage hands always have alot of equity vs your strong hands. So if you go 3+ to the flop you still wont have the best hand to often at shdn. Add variance on that and the numbers can get seriously skewed.

Plus out of this small sample size the sample size of going to shdn is even smaller so yeah nothing worth thinking about just yet.

If you think its rigged, leave and play on a different site.


Run a simple T-test on it and see what that says.