Venetian $1-2 PLO ($5 min bring-in)

Reads / image: I moved from a must-move table 60 to 90 minutes ago with $790 and lost a bit of it. I’ve been running somewhat card-dead and playing my usual nitty game. I really expect anyone to assume that preflop aggression by me would be 100% aces.

UTG is a young Asian guy who has been raising preflop about 25% of the time and betting a lot postflop.

UTG+1 is a somewhat young, Caucasian guy who i haven’t seen play a lot of pots. I have a tentative read that he might be a little more solid than the typical $1-2 player, but it’s not a very well-founded read.

Stacks:
Hero $640
UTG $400
UTG+1 $1500


Hero is in HJ (2 off button) with AQJ8

Button straddle $10
fold, fold
UTG raise to $25
UTG+1 calls $25
fold, fold
Hero ???

My play would be to flat the raise here. If they are going to put you on aces when you 3-bet then I don't really like having an ace in my hand. I'd much rather 3-bet with something like J986ds. Another thing is that if you 3 bet the UTG raiser might just decide to stick it in, which even if you are ahead you have a much bigger edge by flatting and playing post flop. I could see 3-betting to knock out the straddle as an argument but I still think the reasons for flatting outweigh this.

In this spot with the given action I would flat this hand. I dont want to raise and get bet out of the hand or bloat the pot a lot pre here. Although making it $100 if stack size allow and UTG wont ship it over the top (unless we want him to) is ok as well. But I like to flat way more.

easy, easy flat ainec

Thanks for the feedback, y'all.

INEC for those of you who don't suck at medium-stack PLO like i do. For my education, what is the reasoning or the principle that i can apply to other situations? Avoid reducing the SPR in position with a pretty good multiway drawing hand? I.e. it's OK to play pots IP very multiway (since i expect others to overcall) without the initiative against super-LAGs?

Alas, here's how it continued:

Stacks:
Hero $640
UTG $400
UTG+1 $1500


Hero is in HJ (2 off button) with AQJ8

Button straddle $10
fold, fold
UTG raise to $25
UTG+1 calls $25
fold, fold
Hero pots to $115
Fold, button folds
UTG calls $115
UTG+1 calls $115

Flop (pot $356; Hero $525 behind; SPR=1.5)
7 5 2
I have 4 overcards and a backdoor NFD

Check, check
Hero ???

This is the problem with raising. Now what? We have position so we are expected to bet. If villians put you on AAxx ONLY then they check to you 100% of the time to CR and honestly, they are checking any flop here. So now we bloated a pot, in position, with no info.

I think we have to check behind, but any good solid PLO player that knows the game is either going to put you on AAxx or what you have and doesnt think you can call a bet on the turn.

You are in a tough spot. I check back 100% unless its a game where you know what they know and they know you have AA and you take it down for a bet here. Its a crap shoot to me in this spot. Bet and you cant fold if you bet. Or check back and see a turn. But no turn really helps our hand here.

This is pretty much the perfect board to keep representing aces. Neither of these players are likely to have hit this flop. Even if UTG is opening a lot of hands, he's probably tighter from an early position. Sometimes one of them shows up with a 8765, or something like that, but mostly they will have missed and already given up.

If you had aces, you would bet and stack off.
Keep representing aces and you'll win the pot more often than not, imo.

PS.
The multiway qualities of your hand makes me prefer a call preflop.

I kind of agree with this. Just represent the hand from the start but if you did have AA would you bet this flop? And what ranges are they calling you with here? This is very player dependent I think and hard to assume.

I don't feel like you can cbet bluff this flop profitably because your equity is so low. If you get called or raised then your dead. I would check the flop. I don't really mind 3betting this hand pre if you think you can get it heads up, but it might be better with a slightly more coordinated hand. A single suited triple gapper had pretty low floppability. I'd rather it be double suited or fewer gaps before I 3!.

Yeah, and i don't think i'm experienced enough to make these assessments. Giving up here isn't really that bad, is it?


Stacks:
Hero $640
UTG $400
UTG+1 $1500


Hero is in HJ (2 off button) with AQJ8

Button straddle $10
fold, fold
UTG raise to $25
UTG+1 calls $25
fold, fold
Hero pots to $115
Fold, button folds
UTG calls $115
UTG+1 calls $115

Flop (pot $356; Hero $525 behind; SPR=1.5)
7 5 2
I have 4 overcards and a backdoor NFD

Check, check
Hero bets pot, $360
Fold
UTG+1 raises all-in (effectively)
Hero calls $165 more


I felt like i might still have a little bit of equity getting like 6:1 or something.


So, this hand is a good chance to learn from mistakes.

My opponent called my 3bet for 1/6 of effective stacks with (A3)(Q4) against a player who he should expect to have AA. I played this one like a donk, i flopped really bad, and he flopped what he wanted, and yet he was still only 65% when the money went in. I wouldn't even play that hand for the $15 in that position as a beginner -- should i be playing it?

People seem to really overrate double-suited hands in live PLO. I see stuff like JT72 all the time at showdown.

Improve your post flop game and then you can widen your range. Def flatting IP against live stations. Might even flat AA Pre since 3! Puts us face up and we are 300bb deep in a 1/2 game.

Def not bluffing this flop mainly because you won't get random 2pr to fold because you look like u have AAxx. We can also peel a spade for free and increase our equity.

I feel like in live PLO esp against ppl who dont play much PLO u have to be nitty because they are likely to call u with what they perceive is a great hand.

Obv this can go both ways but it should lead us to bluff less without reads.

Right, exactly. It's disorienting to read Hwang (Big Play) and get in the mindset of needing not just the nuts but the nuts with tons of redraws or big wraps and then see people stacking off 150BB deep with the jack-high FD + gutshot versus top and bottom pair.

I do find that quick player profiling is pretty feasible in these games. There are the crazy gamblers (often from Europe) who are the ones stacking off light, but then when they bust out the game might be a bunch of nits like me. When that's the case, my simple bluffs and floats work, but only in those specific situations.

flat pre
as played check back flop and try to hit top pair then shove

Right on
Although 3b ain't that bad

flat. but i like the one thing one said about shipping the flop becasue of the amount of dead money, but can anyone like, show that in PPT or something? how bad of a dog do we have to get it in as to still be winning in the long run?