Wow @ Loctus, what arrogant/troll style to a serious thread.
Almost seems like u have some part of involvement with the b0tting or financial interest in discreditting OPs theories.
@OP this is very concerning stuff, if I was reg on ipoker i would be very wary of putting volume there with this information you've posted.

At the very beginning wasn't looking at hole card sharing just grouped weird good nitty accounts together and found the abnormality.

I can't be sure what is going on here but why I suggested these accounts are not humans was their simultaneus extreme pre flop adaptation to my play that you wouldn't expect from a group of very tight players. (Especially on small limits like this - PLO €50 & €100).

It resembled a litte what happened to someone on ipoker NL couple years ago:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/28...-ring-1074250/

I am not sure are you able to collude this effectively without at least some software help as most of these accounts play 10+ tables at a time.

Couple links to current NL bot problems on other networks:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/28...poker-1455008/

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/28...-view-1474198/

I would say that result of colluding is not a dramatic increase in win rate for a single player but a more subtle increase for several of them. Which makes it harder to detect so more dangerous.

OP have you looked at how frequently these 'bots' were sitting at the same tables?
And maybe their win rates when together and alone (if at all).

At the moment I am not much concerned about bots but colluding/card sharing could be a big issue as iPoker does not monitor this at all do they?

i'm posting to accept the dumbass of the month award.

if they alleged bot ring didn't know that we are onto them, they do now. i chatted with one of the suspected accounts and now he has no doubt that people are suspicious. my sincere apologies for that, not sure what the **** i was thinking.

that said, i think the evidence is pretty strong that some of the accounts indeed are bots.

we should proceed with the actions urgently, collecting all the evidence as fast as possible and trying to act upon it. i'm not sure what's the best action to take, but i will contact my industry connections to search for the right person to get in contact with.

^^

Bots that share each others hands and use this information to push equities on draws seems insane - surely its a collusion ring rather than bot ring?

sounds good, should we alerting our ipoker skins individually?

I, like many in this thread, are confused at exactly what the data is showing, so we need some confirmation and clarification to enable us to pass on the information in the clearest manor possible

What evidence are you referring to exactly? Based on the evidence presented ITT it is not evident to me.

Yes, speed is essential. We don't want players to be able to withdraw funds before accounts are frozen. I have made some inquiries myself, though we are still lacking strong evidence. Right now the data as presented is dismissible. Though somebody with sophistication (or simply access to more information), such as say a playtech security team might be able to investigate and find something we couldn't. But only if they take it seriously.

my own database and talks with willy

interesting the plot thickens, sounds like you are convinced that something is up, once you guys have clear conclusions please let us know so we can report to relevant skins

or would it better to not have 10s of people reporting the same issue?

Anything I could do to help?

I think it's good if multiple people report the issue. I would just try to not make the exact report public (only to select individuals) as to not make it easier for the potential cheaters.

I finally found this link.
Now look this happened long time ago at Party Poker which made them remove the side bet feature.

Bots were definitely sharing their hole cards not against the other players but against the house - to gain an edge.

Or do you think humans were able to do this so fast?


http://archives1.twoplustwo.com/show...ge=602&fpart=1

This game was very simple to solve but what makes you think it would be isane on PLO ?

whether they're bots or humans graphs posted so far seem to indicate they know dead cards. Good work freewilly12, hope a collaboration with NoahSD works out.

@op
i just run 4 midstakes aliases with 5m hds each...
filtering:3to6 players,vpip:yes,saw showdown:yes,won hand:true

after i looked up report "hands at showdown"

those aliases made
boat 11.59%-12.42%
flush 14.55%-15.39%
str8 18.05%-18.60%

imho colluders can be identified by higher numbers?!?
can you run an alias of suspected accounts...and compare numbers?

seeing as we have a second person who has come to the same conclusion then I would be happy to pass on the information to Betfair (I would say that someone like willy or napsus would be best as they know the figures and how they came to the same conclusions)

would these be playing on 1 computer do you think or diff comp? If diff comp ipoker could see whether they are the same IP, or I guess they would shield that as well??

When do you think you guys will bring this to ipoker skins?

I ran the filter maybe you could check these numbers? I didn't completely follow...



How about their total winning frequency at showdown?

You mentioned earlier making more straights,flushes and boats compared to their vpip?
Can you compare it with this filter as all the hands go to showdown?

those aliases made your alias
boat 11.59%-12.42% 12.58%
flush 14.55%-15.39% 16.11%
str8 18.05%-18.60% 17.21%

before vpiping a hand....what does a passive (cardsharing only) colluder look for?

-cards that are matching his pockets
-cards with the suit of his fd

he is not looking for str8 outs....

looking at those numbers,deviation seems small...
tho deviation at boats is worth 75BI...at flushes 129BI

"How about their total winning frequency at showdown?"

we are working here with observed hds...
some players will show loosing hds...some do not...
what results ina nice bias...

oh well...it's party...no idea there

jaop you cant just run 4 midstakes aliases and compare to willys bot alias. I'm pretty sure your aliases and willys have vastly different preflop stats which will result in different sorts of hands winning at showdown. For example, if your midstakes players are playing looser preflop then they are more likely to make random straights and less likely to make flushes/boats than willys tighter alias is (simply comparing a 30vpip player to a 20vpip player would show this exact thing).

We obviously don't know if this is the case though since willy still has not even provided his basic criteria for bunching up this bot-alias (other than "they are tight" or "they have non human preflop stats", whatever the **** that means)...

+1

I'm just a hopeless skeptic.

I wish I was involved in running a self-adjusting hole-card-sharing PLO bot though. Unfortunately I am not even remotely intelligent enough to create that, and I do maintain the stance that it is complete fairytale that one would exist.

If you put aside Loctus exasperated/agressive tone, he does raise some good points. I'm fifty fifty on this.