Fold KKxx to 4bet and then an allin - Small Stakes Pot Limit Omaha

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Fold KKxx to 4bet and then an allin

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06-07-2015 , 12:10 AM

I am God

banned

Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 192

Hi,

Both villains are nitty, I suspect both have AAXX. Fold or call?
Villain 1 has: A

Villain 2 has: A

Villain 1 raised initially and then 4b all in.

Why does the converter not work??

Hands not showing properly in the replayer.

IPoker, $0.10/$0.20 Pot Limit Omaha Cash, 5 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite. View Hand #36672101

MP: $30.32 (151.6 bb)
CO: $20 (100 bb)
Hero (BTN): $23.33 (116.7 bb)
SB: $23.50 (117.5 bb)
BB: $26.42 (132.1 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BTN with K

MP folds, CO raises to $0.70, Hero raises to $2.40, SB raises to $8.10, BB folds, CO raises to $20 and is all-in, Hero folds, SB calls $11.90

Flop: ($42.60) 6

(2 players, 1 is all-in)
Turn: ($42.60) 6

(2 players, 1 is all-in)
River: ($42.60) 10

(2 players, 1 is all-in)

Spoiler:

Get the Flash Player to use the Hold'em Manager Replayer.

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06-07-2015 , 01:53 AM

VerdantDevil

grinder

Join Date: Apr 2013 Posts: 598

At these stakes the only people 4 or 5betting without AAxx are deep stacks, good players, or people looking to gamble. Good fold.

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06-07-2015 , 02:05 AM

PastyDonkey

centurion

Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 188

If you know they both have AA then you're flipping 3 ways and there is already dead money in there so just gamble.

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06-07-2015 , 04:39 AM

Ph33roX

old hand

Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 1,285

It's probably pretty close and really depends on whether either of them is capable of having anything other than AA.

When they both have AA, you're in a 3-way flip and can expect to make a small profit from the dead money. When one of them doesn't have AA you're losing a decent bit.

You need a decent degree of certainty in your read to make a marginal call like this. If you had it then I think a call is OK, but if you didn't then don't beat yourself over it.

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06-07-2015 , 05:24 AM

Jabonator

nice piano there

Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 13,289

Not folding. Not that unlikely to be up against 2 AAxx, and even if not, your KK is so strong, that you'll have good equity a lot of the time.

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06-07-2015 , 06:28 AM

Ph33roX

old hand

Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 1,285

Just checked PPT and our equity against AA and a non-AA hand from a 6% 4betting range is below 26%.

Also rake has to be taken into account here

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06-07-2015 , 07:07 AM

Ph33roX

old hand

Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 1,285

I did some calculations for stacking off against two AA. I took into account rake effect using the PokerStars rake system.

Main Pot: 58.20 (post rake pot) * 0.338 (Equity) = 19.67
Side Pot: 6.36 (post rake sidepot) * 39.1 (Equity) = 2.48

Hero's stack when going all in against AA: 19.67 + 2.48 = 22.15.
Hero's stack when folding: 23.33 (starting stack) - 2.40 (Hero's 3bet) = 20.93.

Overall a 6BB difference.

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06-07-2015 , 07:10 AM

Jabonator

nice piano there

Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 13,289

Wow. Well, anyways, should've put a disclaimer in my post - no math behind it, I hate folding, and gambooool.

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06-07-2015 , 07:16 AM

Ph33roX

old hand

Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 1,285

Haha

Well, if they both have AA we stand to do about 6bb better than folding, that's not bad.

I'm gonna do the math now on the other scenario.

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06-07-2015 , 07:37 AM

#10

Ph33roX

old hand

Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 1,285

Same math against AA and a non-AA hand from a 6% 4betting range.

Main Pot: 58.20 (post rake pot) * 0.25.8 (equity) = 15.01
Side Pot : 6.36 (post rake sidepot) * 0.39.5 (average equity in sidepot) = 2.51

Hero Stack when going all in: 17.52
Hero Stack When Folding: 20.93

Overall a 17BB difference.

If getting it in against two AA hands is +6BB and getting it in against one AA and one non-AA is -17BB, you need almost three occurrences of the first scenario to make up for every occurrence of the latter.

That shows you need a good degree of certainty in your read.

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06-07-2015 , 10:59 AM

#11

MadDogMoody

grinder

Join Date: Jan 2015 Posts: 621

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ph33roX

If getting it in against two AA hands is +6BB and getting it in against one AA and one non-AA is -17BB, you need almost three occurrences of the first scenario to make up for every occurrence of the latter.

That shows you need a good degree of certainty in your read.

What was this using? I use pro poker tools online but am not sure how to input the 4betting ranges etc. Is it on odds oracle?

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06-07-2015 , 11:00 AM

#12

MadDogMoody

grinder

Join Date: Jan 2015 Posts: 621

I do think that it is a fold, you lose a lot of equity if your flush draws are nutted and if not then your just under flipping. (this is based on a few equity calculations on PT4, range from 25'ish% - 32.5%).

So fold most likely

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06-07-2015 , 11:21 AM

#13

Ph33roX

old hand

Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 1,285

Quote:

Originally Posted by MadDogMoody

What was this using? I use pro poker tools online but am not sure how to input the 4betting ranges etc. Is it on odds oracle?

I used the desktop version of PPT for this one. I've imported the PokerJuice ranges (which anyone with a desktop version PPT can do for free) and those are the ranges I use almost always.

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06-07-2015 , 07:16 PM

#14

MadDogMoody

grinder

Join Date: Jan 2015 Posts: 621

Cheers. I'll look in to getting that. I want to do a review session at 5k haands which should be tomorrow and this will help a lot i think.

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06-07-2015 , 08:16 PM

#15

I am God

banned

Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 192

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ph33roX

In this scenario I was 29% preflop. I did some calculations I think (correct me if I'm wrong) I am not getting the right odds. Think I had to put in 34%. But not sure, could you check this out for me.

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06-07-2015 , 11:42 PM

#16

Ph33roX

old hand

Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 1,285

Not sure what you're asking

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06-08-2015 , 09:02 AM

#17

I am God

banned

Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 192

Pot Odds

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