AA + nFD 3way on TT6 SPR=1,5 - Small Stakes Pot Limit Omaha

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AA + nFD 3way on TT6 SPR=1,5

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08-22-2015 , 01:06 PM

eSBe

centurion

Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 189

Poker Stars $0.05/$0.10 Pot Limit Omaha Hi - 6 players
BTN: $9.15
SB: $40.36
Hero (BB): $10.00
UTG: $10.00
MP: $22.19
CO: $31.23

Pre Flop: ($0.15) Hero is BB with 6

1 fold, MP raises to $0.35, CO calls $0.35, 1 fold, SB calls $0.30, Hero raises to $1.75, 1 fold, CO calls $1.40, SB calls $1.40

Flop: ($5.60) 6

(3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $2.14, CO folds, SB raises to $11.78, Hero calls $6.11 all in--- Do you think that x/jam is better in this spot that b/call? My hand does not need protection since I am way ahead or way behind. Maybe I should just xc on the flop? Does it really matter if I play this hand as bet/call or x/jam? Can I fold my hand when I check and strong action happened?

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08-22-2015 , 01:09 PM

Mt.FishNoob

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 12,241

about 27% of time someone has ten but I weight it because T is part of lots of combos that people enjoy playing

preflop investment 3 ways is not sufficient to auto jam

It's a tough spot, if you'r jammign it doesn't matter how you jam , you are only goonna get it in vs T*** 66 and maybe so inside wrap with FS, and against spew tards then OP +FD+gs or whatever.

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08-25-2015 , 12:39 AM

Travbana

old hand

Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 1,573

Dont 3b pre with crappy Aces OOP 4way.
c/c flop, give someone the chance to bluff, and a chance to spike a lower flush OTT if it goes check trough .

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08-25-2015 , 02:46 AM

sb77

grinder

Join Date: Jul 2013 Posts: 568

you've prob got 2 clean outs and maybe ur flush is live but i don't think sb raises without a T ever tbh

you can still save 60bb by folding

i don't think its worth a call imo

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08-25-2015 , 02:47 AM

Ph33roX

old hand

Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 1,285

Those aces are not crappy. The 3bet preflop is fine, Now bet/call the flop.

Bet/folding this hand at this SPR would be pretty bad.

Don't try to optimize your line for when they have Tx. When they have Tx it's gonna suck.

The good news are that most of the time they won't have it, so you'll take down a huge pot or even better - get more money in with crushing equity vs weaker draws.

Last edited by Ph33roX; 08-25-2015 at 02:53 AM.

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08-25-2015 , 11:42 AM

MadDogMoody

grinder

Join Date: Jan 2015 Posts: 621

When you are bet/calling this flop should we be betting closer to pot or do you prefer to just induce when we have the FD too.

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08-25-2015 , 03:12 PM

Rei Ayanami

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Aug 2012 Posts: 11,685

Quote:

Originally Posted by sb77

you've prob got 2 clean outs and maybe ur flush is live but i don't think sb raises without a T ever tbh

you can still save 60bb by folding

i don't think its worth a call imo

Are you a psychic? Because you can save 60 big blinds -- but only if you know what the turn and river will be. A call will be roughly neutral EV even against [T, 66]. Just adding a small number of other hands (e.g. adding nothing but KK with a king-high FD) makes folding a pretty clear mistake.

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08-26-2015 , 08:36 AM

Oink

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 10,308

Folding to the raise is bad. Particularly since Hero is blocking boats and only needs what 28'ish%?

Not 3betting pre is terrible.

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08-26-2015 , 09:31 PM

Quadtwos

grinder

Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 412

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rei Ayanami

Here is where I got stuck....I reread the HH, the stack size, the betting etc to make sure that I have not misread anything. I haven't. Ok, not sure what sort of maths are involved, but can you please supply the maths to back-up your assertion that it would be neutral EV to call the shove if our opponent holds T, 66.

Thank you.

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08-26-2015 , 09:42 PM

#10

Rei Ayanami

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Aug 2012 Posts: 11,685

What result did your sims give? I can double-check them for you.

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08-26-2015 , 09:51 PM

#11

Quadtwos

grinder

Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 412

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rei Ayanami

What result did your sims give? I can double-check them for you.

ar, I see...so we are in for that sort of discussion.

I was questioning your assertion that it would be neutral EV to call when our opponent is holding Txxx, 66xx only, and was hoping you could supply some justification of your seemingly weird (or genius) maths.

Thank you.

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08-26-2015 , 10:04 PM

#12

Rei Ayanami

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Aug 2012 Posts: 11,685

I'd rather both sides of a discussion do their fair share of the lifting. I don't want to be the only person doing any sort of work beyond typing words.

As I said, I'll double-check your results if you invest the effort into a PPT sim.

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08-26-2015 , 10:13 PM

#13

Quadtwos

grinder

Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 412

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rei Ayanami

If you make a counter-intuitive assertion, surely you are the one who ought to back it up? If yours was a standard assertion, and I had disagree with you, than I would agree that I ought to do the maths to back up my point, but that is not the case here.

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08-26-2015 , 10:31 PM

#14

Rei Ayanami

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Aug 2012 Posts: 11,685

Nah, it's not counter-intuitive.

Anyway, I missed the line where you said you weren't sure what sort of math was involved.

Pot odds: 6.11/22.1, meaning you need 27.5% equity.

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi Simulation

5,349,680 trials (Exhaustive)

board: 6

Hand	Pot equity	Wins	Ties
6dAs9sAc	28.44%	1,519,226	4,145
(T,66):25%!4%	71.56%	3,826,309	4,145

You can use a variety of preflop ranges and they'll be around that.

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08-27-2015 , 04:10 AM

#15

Mt.FishNoob

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Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 12,241

It's always going to be pretty much breakeven,

Account for rake, and SB having 100% T,66,T6 then it's a clear fold (with that flop sizing (and giving SB a more realistic preflop range than 25!4%)

So the flop betsize, and reads are very significant in determining if the gradient is + or -

It becomes trivial because we can widen the range we are against to include semi bluffs, under the assumption that he perceives we are bet folding there.

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08-27-2015 , 04:39 AM

#16

Rei Ayanami

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Aug 2012 Posts: 11,685

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mt.FishNoob

Account for rake, and SB having 100% T,66,T6 then it's a clear fold (with that flop sizing (and giving SB a more realistic preflop range than 25!4%)

It's a close (marginal) fold at the absolute worst.

Moot point anyway because . . .

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mt.FishNoob

It becomes trivial because we can widen the range we are against to include semi bluffs, under the assumption that he perceives we are bet folding there.

. . . you can widen the range to include hands other than Tx+ under the assumption that you haven't established that SB is a humongous nit.

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08-27-2015 , 11:33 AM

#17

Mt.FishNoob

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Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 12,241

Up is up, down is down, regardless of gradient, you're either going robusto or busto.

So a humongous nit is someone who doesn't semi bluff check shove into a 3 way paired board giving ~27% odds.

lol

There are gonna be two answers and two ways to play, the strict one, and the other one. The other one is usually best, and hardly anybody plays strict so it's not like you lose much when they do.

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08-27-2015 , 09:28 PM

#18

MadDogMoody

grinder

Join Date: Jan 2015 Posts: 621

@Mt.FishNoob in your live play do you consider the rake taken at any given pot. I guess stars takes rake on each steet and there is a cap but do you judge how much will be taken from the pot or is this just not possible on the fly?

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08-27-2015 , 10:26 PM

#19

Mt.FishNoob

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 12,241

Quote:

in your live play do you consider the rake taken at any given pot

There is no point playing plo10 on stars because of the rake (relative to other available micro games), so I can't really answer. The rake impacts my preflop consideration at times when had to grind that low.

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08-28-2015 , 03:02 AM

#20

apo5tol

veteran

Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 2,238

Quote:

Originally Posted by MadDogMoody

nah he just randomly uses it to justify his outrageous statements. just ignore them

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08-28-2015 , 03:28 AM

#21

SeaKing

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 5,387

You want to expand flop calling ranges as wide as possible with your holding, betting 1.25 certainly nets a few more bb than 2.14.

A rake of 4.5% than never hits the cap should always be taken into account in 10PLO equity simulations, if you're going to do something, do it right.

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08-28-2015 , 07:09 PM

#22

Mt.FishNoob

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Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 12,241

Quote:

Originally Posted by apo5tol

nah he just randomly uses it to justify his outrageous statements. just ignore them

Learn math please, and/or English if your comprehension is failing,

was going to respond to the troll but seaking has clarified plenty

But you may have been sarcastic.... I'd say it's not likely as Russians are not capable of sarcasm.

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